Talk:Aerith Gainsborough

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[edit] Please read before editing:

  • This article name is "Aerith Gainsborough". This is not a typo, nor is it incorrect.
  • Please do not change any name spellings - these changes have been made many times and have always been reverted. Please also be aware that when editing the template values it may affect the display of the images.
  • Any discussion on this should occur below. People are aware in FFVII English localisations Aerith's name is Aeris, but per WP:NCON it is policy on the English Wikipedia to use the official and most common name, and Aerith has been used in favor of Aeris in more recent localizations. Changes may occur dependent on the name spellings used in upcoming Final Fantasy VII sequels.
  • Be sure to read through the topics below, and if you want to ask a team of Final Fantasy editors, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Final Fantasy.
  • Be sure to date any comments that you make in the discussions, any undated comments may be subject to removal.
  • This article was moved from Aerith Gainsbourg to Aerith Gainsborough on 15 September 2005 (see talk page/archives)

[edit] A potential explanation

"Aeris ventures alone into the Forgotten City for an unknown purpose. Cloud and his companions give chase, eventually finding her praying at an altar. As Aeris looks up to smile at Cloud, Sephiroth appears and kills her with a single thrust of his sword. The materia given to her by her mother, which she wore in her hair, falls from the altar into the water." - regarding this part of the text, i often find myself asking why did she go to sephiroth and why does she just sit there praying. I think there might be an answer, she sacrificed herself, maybe just maybe she could only summon holy in death. --Realist2 (Come Speak To Me) 17:03, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think we should add this. To me it seems like OR. The Prince (talk) 17:57, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I second that, this is totally WP:OR. MythSearchertalk 18:13, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name change (hopefully last one)

Let's discuss the issue rather than edit back and forth. (Guyinblack25 talk 22:32, 4 June 2008 (UTC))

Already was working on starting a discussion, don't worry. :) Nezu Chiza (talk) 22:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Aerith versus Aeris

In the interests of avoiding an edit war, time to open this up for discussion again it seems. Her official name is Aerith and has been for quite some time. Official literature from Japan has supported this even from the time of FFVII. Mislocalization resulted in Aeris, and this has been fixed in the US since around the time of Kingdom Hearts. Aerith being the official name even resulted in this page being moved to the current naming convention. Frankly, I see no reason to use two different forms of her name in the article outside of a concession at the beginning mentioning the situation, and any direct quotes. Using Aerith in part of the article and Aeris in the FFVII and FFT sections both looks bad from a style standpoint and may be confusing to readers unfamiliar with the older name. I recommend the aforementioned explanation and the use of Aeris only in the direct quotations and any article link names, and Aerith in the body of the article per WP:NCON and Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style. Nezu Chiza (talk) 22:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Not to mention that the article itself got enough information that why the correct name, Aerith, is used over the incorrect, Aeris, while some editors who refuses to read or accept simple logic keep changing it with their own knowledge, which introduces factual error and original research. MythSearchertalk 03:34, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Her official name in Japan is of no relevance to her official English name. In English, the character's name is spelt Aeris in FFVII and FFTactics, and Aerith in other media. The article's name is obviously Aerith, since it's the current official spelling, but when writing about each media, the name used in that media should be used. We don't have any source to say whether the spelling "Aeris" was an error or not, and even if it was (and yeah, it most probably was), the role of an encyclopedia isn't to rewrite history but to report facts. The different translations should and are accounted for, but they're not "corrected". That would be original research. There is nothing confusing about the current version of the article. On ther other hand, altering direct quotes from the PSX game and third-party sources like you did is confusing as it contradicts the two-name explanation and mislead people into thinking the PSX game never used a different spelling to begin with. Other articles from this project follow the same logic of not rewriting history. For instance, the spellings of the NES version are primarily used in the FF1 article, while the more recent spellings are indicated in parentheses. The spellings of the PSX version are used in the FFTactics article, while the more "correct" spellings of the PSP version are reserved for the PSP version (which in that case has its own article). Remember that we're dealing with various fictional works, not a real person with physical integrity and identity. Per WP:WAF, differences (and more globally retcons, plot-holes, etc.) between the various works of a series should be accounted for, not "corrected" to reflect what "really" happened and how things "really" were. Kariteh (talk) 07:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
The correctness I am talking about here is what the creator originally used. We are talking about a fictional work here, and thus the creator's version should be the correct one. Also, I have never alter any direct quotes, do not accuse me of doing anything of that sort. MythSearchertalk 09:47, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, technically, the creator used...whatever Japanese characters because stupid Windows Firefox doesn't like to display them.
As for accusations, there's always this. There's nothing in what Kariteh said that mentioned you in particular. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 09:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Technically, the creator used Aerith in Japanese publications including the original FFVII game manual which I still have with my game CDs and the FFVII 10th anniversary Ultimania along with the Japanese characters エアリス. The reply Kariteh used altering direct quotes from the PSX game and third-party sources like you did is confusing sounds extremely like an accusation to me since it is under my reply, I guess it is directed to the top comment but it sounds more confusing when placed in the wrong position, especially the first half of the paragraph is replying my comment. That is why I insist the creator used Aerith instead of Aeris. The fact is that the English version used Aeris, I am not going to argue about it or change the article's portion or quote back to Aerith on those cases, yet I stand my ground on the correctness of Aerith over Aeris. And anyone trying to change all other instances in the aritcle from Aerith to Aeris is introducing factual error and is not paying respect to the creators. MythSearchertalk 14:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Uh. Currently We use Aeris when we're recapping works that used Aeris, we use Aerith when we're recapping works that use that, and we'll use Fred when we're recapping works where she's called Fred. The only one trying to change the status quo, AFAICT, is Nezu. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 16:21, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
And using the names like that makes little to no sense. Having the warning at the beginning about the name disparity would fix all the problems, using two different spellings of her name looks bad and is against policy anyway. Why is that so hard to understand? I realize that, as fans, you have your minds locked onto one thing, but that doesn't make it right. Status quo doesn't equate to absolute correctness. Also, Kariteh, I don't appreciate your little dig. I accidentally altered ONE third party source for the name Aeris, leaving all others, and someone else was kind enough to fix it. Attempting to use that accident as an excuse to accuse me of original research is really reaching, I'm afraid. Why do you insist on trying to make this personal? How is my wanting to correct the article THREATENING to you? A In any event, I suppose we'll have to leave her name as Aeris in those two sections despite policy. After all, Wikipedia is a fan forum, not an encyclopedia, and I apologize for forgetting that. Nezu Chiza (talk) 16:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
This discussion seems like it's really prone to assumptions and prejudging, so please stay calm and try not to put words or thoughts into other people's mouths, everybody. In case of doubt, ask the other editor to clarify his view rather than imagining their view. MythSearcher, I don't think anyone here ever recommended changing all instances of Aerith to Aeris. Nezu, I'm not a fan of Final Fantasy VII; it's my least favourite FF. It's a shame something as irrelevant as this has to be said; it's totally irrelevant to the discussion, but apparently it has to be specified since you've brought up the "fan" factor. Concerning my "little dig", I did no such thing. The term "third-party source" was secondary in my post, the important term was "PSX game". You had changed Aeris to Aerith in quotes taken directly from the game's script, that's what I was pointing at. I suppose I could have omitted "third-party source" to be more to the point. But anyway, there is nothing personal in this; I really try not to be personal in this kind of discussion, and in fact it's probably why MythSearcher thought I was referring to him (I didn't mention your name, so the confusion arose).
Anyway, yes I believe we should spell her name as Aeris in the PSX game sections and Aerith in the others. You (Nezu) brought up some policies which only apply to the article's title; the article's title should indeed be Aerith Gainsborough, and no one is challenging that. However, these policies don't apply to the spelling of the character's name in the article; there is no "naming conflict" per se, just several games and works. Some feature a character named "Aeris", others feature the same character but named "Aerith", and they should be described accordingly. I don't see any reason to use Aerith when referring to the PSX game. Square Enix has never explicitely stated "The character's name was misspelt in the PSX game", so we don't have the possibility to use Aerith when speaking about the PSX game. An encyclopedia's role is to describe, not prescribe. What we can do is explain that the name has two spellings, and then there can be no reason for readers to be confused. Again, please consider the examples of Final Fantasy (video game) and Final Fantasy Tactics/Final Fantasy Tactics: The War of the Lions; these are not this article, but their case is relevant since they are part of the same wikiproject. Kariteh (talk) 17:43, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
And I, Nezu, pointed out to you, Keriteh, that that was an accident, and I even thanked the person who corrected it when they fixed it. You assumed I had made the change to mislead and contradict things, basically assuming bad faith on my part. Still, you wouldn't have known I thanked the person who corrected it, and that it was a mistake on my part, so perhaps those are mitigating circumstances. Or perhaps not, since saying it would mislead people and contradict the two name issue implies you weren't inclined to assume good faith. As a final note, however, you should know that using the logic "Well, X, Y, and Z articles do it this way, so W should as well." isn't a valid rebuttal. In any event, the inertia against the changes I recommended is too strong, so their is no point in my regurgitating my points over and over. My views are know, with at least one other person supporting them. You, Keriteh, have A Man in Black supporting your side, so as it stands we can reach no consensus. I'll continue to hope that changes in my favor, however, as I'm sure you hope that it will continue in yours. For the moment, let's have pax between us. Nezu Chiza (talk) 19:12, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I think the problem here is that kariteh did not notice the anon who just changed all instances of Aerith to Aeris, and thus I mentioned that the correct name used should be Aerith instead of Aeris, and of course I am only implying the ones that are Aerith in their according source and translation. It is getting confusing and the issue here is that 4 people discussing here actually seems to have a pretty close view on the topic, the only problem here is that an anon account did something else that is way off and my comments are directed against that type of action. I am bailing out, this will not get any better with me confusing this any further, sorry. MythSearchertalk 21:21, 5 June 2008 (UTC)