Talk:Adaptogen
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[edit] Pseudoscience
It'd be nice if someone would throw in some information obtained from double-blind controlled scientific studies, instead of the claims of herbalists. 72.82.214.183 05:34, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Most well-known adaptogens
Having some familiarity with adaptogens, I was confused to see Siberian Chaga listed first among the 'most well-known adaptogens', since it was the only one listed that I had never heard of. I did a Google search to see if I was mistaken. Google searches aren't scientific, but they do show that Siberian Chaga is the LEAST known of all listed here. I believe it was added, along with the promotional copy about 'Wildcrafted' Siberian Chaga, by someone who sells the product as a 'distributor'. I removed the copy touting 'Wildcrafted' Siberian Chaga until there is a citation and reference for the scientific study, a list of all the other adaptogens and their ORAC and SOD levels from that study, and an explanation as to why those levels are the gold standard for adaptogens.
Unscientific survey of 'well-known-ness' of adaptogens:
ginseng adaptogen = 145,000 hits on Google
Rhodiola rosea adaptogen = 41,200
Licorice adaptogen = 33,000
ashwagandha adaptogen = 28,800
noni adaptogen = 18,400
Suma adaptogen = 15,200
carthamoides adaptogen = 1,510 (2006-09-26)
gingko adaptogen = 907
tulsi adaptogen = 752
mandshurica adaptogen = 695 (2006-09-26)
jiaogulan adaptogen = 667
Pfaffia paniculata adaptogen = 573
siberian chaga adaptogen = 184
ॐ Priyanath 02:37, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
User:KSVaughan2 4 April 2007. Chaga is well researched and you could go to a medical paper summary to reference it. I wrote an article on chaga and restored the listing to this page.Ksvaughan2 18:17, 4 April 2007 (UTC)Karen Vaughan
[edit] Herbs with possible negative effects
Some of the herbs that allegedly has the most research backing them up don't fulfill the first criteria. Cordyceps inhibits steroidogenesis in the Leydig cells, Guduchi inhibits spermatogenesis and reduces testosterone levels, licorice causes hypertension, schisandra induces hypertriglyceridemia, and shilajit is toxic. I'll remove them in a week unless someone can show me evidence of the contrary. Jack Daw 00:51, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Where is your evidence for the above claims? If you view the history of guduchi, licorice, schisandra, cordyceps and shilajit -- then you will see hundreds of years of positive non-toxic use. Toxicity depends on dosage. Show me your references in herbal texts written by herbalists. The following texts can be consulted for the above Ayurvedic herbs: "Major Herbs of Ayurveda" (Williamson, 2002), "Ayurvedic Medicine" (Pole, 2006), "Handbook of Ayurvedic Medicinal Plants" (Kapoor, 1990); and for the Chinese herbs, "The Way of Chinese Herbs" (Tierra, 1998) - etc. User:1salam1 19 March 2007.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=10773616 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16624278&query_hl=18&itool=pubmed_docsum http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=8658544&query_hl=21&itool=pubmed_docsum
Jack Daw 00:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Response to above: I reviewed the pub med references above. You provided only superficial references to 3 of the herbs. It is very important to note that all of these herbs in question have a long track record of safety and one can always find an isolated animal study reference or a few cases where some people had minor reactions. This is not enough evidence to discount the fact that these herbs are adaptogens.
In response to your references above:
(1) Schisandra: Mice were intragastrically treated with single doses (0.05-0.8 g/kg) of schisandrin B (a dibenzocyclooctadiene derivative isolated from the fruit of Schisandra chinensis). Our results suggest that schisandrin B treatment can be used to establish a mouse model of acute hypertrigylceridemia [an elevated level of triglycerides (fatty acid compounds) in the blood]. . (PMID: 16624278) RESPONSE: One study on mice that used a derivative isolate product is not conclusive that Schisandra is toxic and not an adaptogen. The study also did not use a whole herb extract of Schisandra.
(2) Shilajit or bitumen: The subchronic toxicity following dermal exposure to a synthetic fuel, heavy gas oil No. 2 fraction of bitumen upgrading product (B-HGO II) was studied in the rat... B-HGO II was considered to be toxic at a subchronic dermal exposure level as low as 8 mg/kg/day. (PMID: 8658544) RESPONSE: This one study evaluated one product (isolate) on rats. It is not conclusive that Shilajit is toxic and not an adaptogen.
(3) Licorice: Prolonged ingestion of liquorice is a well-known cause of hypertension due to hypermineralocorticoidism. It is proposed that some people could be susceptible to low doses of glycyrrhizic acid because of a 11beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase deficiency. (PMID: 10773616) RESPONSE: One study measuring prolonged ingestion of licorice indicated hypertension. This is correct for some people. That is why herbalists use licorice in combination with other herbs and also use a licorice product that has the glycyrrhizic acid removed and sold as deglycyrrhizic licorice.
Please put this matter to rest. I am not sure why you are out to discount the safety of these herbs - they have been proven to be safe.
User:1salam1, 21 March 2007.
It was never my intention to list ALL research that would discredit the herbs I mentioned as adaptogens, I merely provided research that indicated that many of them have - in one way or another - toxic effects. You have yet to provide any research; recommending books does not count, that's the oldest trick in the world when you don't actually have anything to back your claims up with, "buy this book", of course no one's going to do that. I'm sure the authors of the books you mentioned have quoted serious scientific papers - right? - which should certainly be able to locate on pubmed or some other serious research library. I have reviewed the other adaptogens and the research in favor of their adaptogenic abilities is sufficient, while there seems to be very little research for those I mentioned, and that says a lot. Three days remaining. Don't ask me to put this matter to rest, do so with useful, accessible references that support your assertions. Jack Daw 02:52, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
In Summary: Jack Daw (JD) claims that the following herbs are not adaptogens because they do not meet the requirement that adaptogens are nontoxic to the recipient. The herbs in question are: herbs used in Ayurvedic medicine - guduchi, licorice, shilajit and herbs used in traditional Chinese medicine - cordyceps, licorice, schisandra. JD wants to remove these herbs from the article unless someone can show evidence of the contrary. He sites references in PubMed that reflect small studies done on rats and he believes that this proves his point that the listed herbs are not nontoxic to recipients. He does not cite any clinical data except mentioning that licorice may cause hypertension (which is discussed in the response above). His sources also refer to derivatives and isolates of the whole herb and therefore not the qualities of the whole herb.
Because JD refers to animal studies and derivatives of the herbs in question, I believe he has no right to remove mention of the herbs in the article. He does not prove that these herbs are toxic to humans. In addition, toxicity depends on dosage.
JD questions using books as references because he believes that books do not discuss “serious” research or provide references to research – this is false. The books cited above all provide reference to research. Just because someone did herbal research on rats and got it published and listed in PubMed does not make it credible and definitive. Animal studies do not have the same credibility as observational studies on humans that have existed for hundreds of years. In regard to Ayurvedic and TCM herbs – most of the research has been done in India and China, is observational and is not listed in PubMed.
Furthermore, to spend the necessary time to prove to JD that the herbs in question are nontoxic is not possible from this user. There is a definitive book on Adaptogens (see further reading in article) that JD can read for further rebuttal and information.
User:1salam1 24 March 2007.
- What is your problem? Referring to me in third person is extremely nonchalant behavior, learn to manage your attitude.
I don't question using books as references (read again, get it right); my point is that the books you mentioned would cite research that has been published elsewhere, if they are credible, that is. It's more often the case than not that animal studies apply for humans; that's what the vast majority of biomedical research relies on. Research that applies the scientific method, which mere observation is not, is more credible than the kind of "research" you mention (anecdotal). That the research is done is China or India is no excuse for its absence from pubmed or other internet libraries; pubmed has countless of papers originally from those countries. Indeed, the supporting research for the other adaptogens are often from China and India as well, and they are available at pubmed. What goes for the credibility of pubmed, it is, to the extent of my knowledge, peer-reviewed. In any case I'm certain they have some sort of election process for what to publish; they certainly won't accept random material without checking it first. pubmed is also credible because people within the scientific community uses it to great extent. What do you mean by "toxicity depends on dosage"? It's completely irrelevant to this discussion, as anything is toxic in high enough amounts. Read your books again, and give me the name and issue of the peer-reviewed journals in which the research they cite was originally published in. If those books cite research that has never been published in a peer-reviewed journal, they offer no credible research. Jack Daw 13:00, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
User:ksvaughan2 4 April 2007 Okay, Jack Daw, I changed nontoxic to "nontoxic in normal doses" which is true. The effects of isolates are quite different from the effects of whole herbs, aqueous extracts or methanol extracts. Frankly, I rarely see a medline article that assays the herb to make certain that it is the herb studied. As for the reliability of medline, pubmed et. al. may I refer you to Jonathan Treasure's article "Medline and the Mainstream Manufacture of Misinformation." http://www.herbological.com/images/downloads/HH2.pdf
User:1salam1 6 April 2007 Thank you ksvaughan2 for clarifying the above discussion and adding the above comment.
