Talk:Ányos Jedlik

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Note: Copyright Cleared - Author asked

The Slovak origin of Jedlik Ányos would need some exact proof in order to survive deletion. Árpád 03:08, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

The Magyar origin of Jedlik Ányos would need some exact proof in order to survive deletion. Juro 03:17, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 10:06, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reliable references

As far as I know he didn't have any Slovak ancestry and was born in a village populated by Hungarians which is now in Slovakia. The reference you gave doesn't seem to be reliable. And why did you remove two relevant categories? Would you explain? Squash Racket (talk) 09:06, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I fixed it. The Hungarian reference I deleted was a dead link. --Wizzard (talk) 10:08, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm just asking about the reliability of the new sources. That's all. He was born in a Hungarian village, receiving the Hungarian name "István". He was among the first to teach his pupils in Hungarian instead of Latin, when that was possible. He was involved in the Revolutions of 1848 in Hungary and he had difficulties later because of his "patriotic behavior." Squash Racket (talk) 10:35, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
One of your sources is a nuclear power plant which is a reference that does not belong in an encyclopedia. Squash Racket (talk) 11:08, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
You are joking, aren't you? You are giving hungarian references only, what is not neutral at all. I do not see any reason why my reference does not belong here. It is an energetic dictionary what is equal to encyclopedia. --Wizzard (talk) 11:38, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

A nuclear power plant is not a source on Wikipedia. A source from the Cleveland State University Library also claims he is Hungarian. The book "Made in Hungary: Hungarian Contributions to Universal Culture" by Andrew L. Simon is also available online. A conference sponsored by the University of Oldenburg, Deutsches Museum, and the University of Winnipeg about "the greatest Hungarian physics teacher Á. Jedlik". Squash Racket (talk) 14:05, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Lol, that is a stupid lie. He was one of the most famous Slovak physicist. Just you, Hungarians, treat all the nationalities in former kingdom to be Hungarian. Who are you that you want to judge what is a relevant source and what is not? At least, he was of Slovak origin, it does not matter that he taught in Hungarian, cause it was the official language in whole kingdom. --Wizzard (talk) 15:00, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Watch your language please (both here and in your edit summaries). I think I've cited enough reliable sources (both English and Hungarian), you brought a source from a power plant. Squash Racket (talk) 15:05, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I watch my language, so please tell me why do you think my references are not relevant, if you want, I may provide much more Slovak references, so do not start an edit war. --Wizzard (talk) 15:16, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
After you warned me, you made five reverts in a few hours? Squash Racket (talk) 11:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand what you wanted to say, but you are funny with that revert war. --Wizzard (talk) 18:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
You reverted three different editors and made five reverts in just a few hours in your revert war. What is so hard to understand? Squash Racket (talk) 05:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Clearly there is a disagreement between Hungarian and Slovak sources. Therefore it would be NPOV to include both claims in the article (and references for them) as I did.[1] It is also a compromise between the versions preferred by WizzardSK and Squash Racket. I do not understand what exactly makes User:Squash Racket believe that "most sources state that he was one of the greatest Hungarian engineers, some people make the claim that he was a Slovak". I doubt anyone here has ever read "most sources" and I do not know any peer-reviewed academic study of "most sources" about Jedlik. The words "some people" is also misleading. I added a reference to Tibensky (1979), which is the most authoritative source on the history of science in Slovakia published to this date. I would not discard the whole mainstream historiography in Slovakia by calling it "some people" while presenting the Hungarian historiography as "most sources". I also urge both users to use the standard term Slovakia instead of the rarely used Republic of Slovakia. I hope these reasons explain sufficiently why I feel obliged to revert to my version (yet retaining sources added by Squash Racket's last edit). Tankred (talk) 19:16, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

That phrasing wasn't made by me, User:Tankred, at least check the page history. "Some Slovak sources" would be more correct. There is a disagreement between neutral, English sources and POV, Slovak sources. I do not understand why User:Tankred thinks the webpage of a Slovak nuclear power plant is a "reliable source" regarding the biography of a scientist. Also please always mark your sources as written in Slovak, otherwise it's misleading. Thank you. Squash Racket (talk) 05:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Tankred, I agree with your revision of this article, it seems to be the best and NPOV. Thank you very much. --Wizzard (talk) 22:10, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
If you want to use the short names of countries instead the long name feel free, but then style demands that we use it consistently not playing around with long and short versions mixing them like you did. Hobartimus (talk) 03:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Hobartimus, you are now edit warring without even attempting to address the issues I have raised on this talk page. You have deleted references and replaced the correct English name "Slovakia" by "Republic of Slovakia". Your edit summary ("rv to NPOV") is totally misleading in light of the arguments posted here. Please be reasonable and either explain your edit here or simply refrain from edit warring. Tankred (talk) 03:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Whx don't you address what I wrote above, please state that you want to use the Long Form, or the Short Form of countries' names? We can progress here but even one issue at a time will seem much if we don't focus. Hobartimus (talk) 04:23, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Hobartimus, it is not important if you write Slovakia, Slovak republic or Republic of Slovakia (although I never saw the last form) but do not try to hide your deletting of categories and Slovak references from the article. If you do not agree that he was Slovak, he was not Hungarian either. --Wizzard (talk) 08:36, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
You were given 8 references including ones in English that state that he was Hungarian. Please make no further attempts to compromise the integrity of the article. Hobartimus (talk) 09:01, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
All Slovak sources and also English sources say that he was Slovak. This means that he was not Hungarian. Foreign sources are not relevant. --Wizzard (talk) 09:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Which book/title talks about his ethnicity/nationality? I went through the list and couldn't find it. Would you help?
Foreign sources are not relevant? Excuse me? Squash Racket (talk) 10:35, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

What do you want? I do not understand: it is written: Pier, A. V. "Slovak Scientist Stefan A. Jedlik, O.S.B." Slovakia 22, no. 45 (1972): 158-60. What is not clear? --Wizzard (talk) 11:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
If this English language source is reliable, I accept it for now.
But you also changed his ethnicity to simply Slovak on the List of Slovaks which hasn't been very constructive. Squash Racket (talk) 11:45, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay, if we keep this article as it is now, I accept it. In the List of Slovaks, we can change his nationality to "Kingdom of Hungary", what is more clean that just Hungarian or Slovak. --Wizzard (talk) 12:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

So it seems we have now a stable referenced version, mentioning both POVs and acceptable to everyone. Congratulations. Tankred (talk) 14:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, thank you all very much. --Wizzard (talk) 14:57, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I only said I accepted it for now (to avoid edit wars), but here are my concerns:

  • he was involved in the Revolutions of 1848 in Hungary and he had difficulties later because of his "patriotic behavior"; as we know real Slovaks were put into prison for using the Revolutions for their own nationalist movement.
  • no record of him speaking Slovak
  • he established the basic vocabulary of physics in Hungarian (creating new words usually done only in someone's mother language)
  • he was among the first to teach his pupils in Hungarian when that became possible
  • he was born in the village of Szímő which even today has a clear Hungarian majority
  • according to sources he received the Hungarian name "István" after his birth
  • sources praise him as "one of the greatest Hungarian minds", and "one of the greatest Hungarian teachers"

The above points and the overall quality of the references and the details in the citations still make me think he was in fact Hungarian. Squash Racket (talk) 06:01, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

In every case, it is very interesting for the people which did not know that (even me). I just found this on [2]: V slovenskej historiografii je považžovaný za Slováka, hoci vyrastal v maďarskom prostredí, ktoré naňho veľmi vplývalo. Jeho otec bol Slovák z Liptova, ktorý sa ako mladý presťahoval ku Komárnu. In English: In Slovak historiography he is considered Slovak, although he grew up in Hungarian environment, that influenced him a lot. His father was a Slovak from Liptov that moved to Komárno region when he was young. So, the only thing that is clear is that his nationality is disputed, cause he was not either only Slovak, nor only Hungarian. --Wizzard (talk) 07:56, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Website of the first Slovak magazine about industrial automation, measurement, control and information technologies? OK, move on. We'll need more information from reliable, neutral, possibly English language sources, the article may change in the future as our knowledge about the topic develops. Squash Racket (talk) 09:18, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, I do not find the fact that a technical sciences magazine writes about a physicist and inventor suspicious. What exactly is unreliable and not neutral with that? As to your points, I do not know what you mean by "real Slovaks". Are there real and unreal Slovaks? Hungarian sources describe him as a Hungarian, while Slovak sources (including mainstream scientific works cited in this Wikipedia's article) describe him as a Slovak. The article reflects this disagreement. By the way, I have read that an international commission composed of Hungarian and Slovak historians is preparing a monograph on the common history of these two nations. When completed, their book may be a very valuable source for us here. Who knows, maybe they will also find a consensus on Jedlik's ethnicity. Tankred (talk) 23:53, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Right. I think, that both sides have the right on their own view of his nationality and we must respect both sides. Maybe most of Hungarians never thought that Slovaks consider him being Slovak and vice versa. Now it is the best compromise. --Wizzard (talk) 12:41, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lock

I recommend to semi-protect this article because it is often a target of vandalism. --Wizzard (talk) 11:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Brno and Slovak sentence

The second to last sentence in the Life section read "He also held lectures in Brno and in Slovak", which I find myself interpreting the sentence to imply Brno and Slovak are two of the same sort of thing (I clicked Brno thinking it must be some rare language I'd yet to hear of). So I've rephrased the sentence to make clear one is a location and the other a language. I hope this doesn't seem a needless change to anyone. DO56 (talk) 19:52, 31 March 2008 (UTC)