Talk:Yevgeny Yevtushenko

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[edit] POV

I removed the following paragraph from the aricle:

Many Russian readers now turn their backs on Yevtushenko, as the politically motivated, 'instructive' poetry that he keeps writing seems to fall out of favour with the Russians. However, he will probably go down in the history of Russian poetry as the author of some impressive poems, like Babi Yar, the long poem used by Shostakovich in his Thirteenth Symphony. In January 1993 Teldec records released Shostakovich's Symphony No 13 with the New York Philharmonic conducted by Kurt Masur. The symphony now is very popular among the international conductors.

as a portion of it violates NPOV, and the rest is mentioned earlier in the article. I've retained it on the talk page for referencing. 192.234.13.40 19:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. This article has suddenly gotten really slanted, as I have just discovered to my dismay. (What's all that about "naughty child of the regime", for God's sake?!) I will try and balance things out in a little while. K. Lásztocska 04:41, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

What happened to the picture? K. Lásztocska 04:38, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Babi Yar: Concealment versus Failure to Commemorate

A fellow Wikipedia user prefers to describe the Soviet attitude to the Babi Yar massacre, which I had described as "Failure to Commemorate", as "Concealment". I am open to hearing from those with additional resources, but my understanding (both from web-based sources and from a program note for a performance of the Babi Yar symphony at the University of Maryland in which Yevtushenko personally participated on Oct 27, 2007) is that the poem was stimulated in the first instance by the poet's shock, when he visited Babi Yar, at the failure of the Soviet authorities to raise a monument at the site. There were at least two aspects of the massacre that the Soviets apparently sought to avoid discussing: (a) the fact that Jews, as Jews, had been the first (though not the only) victims -- Soviet presentations of events of this kind preferred to stress that "Soviet citizens" had died, rather than specifically Jews; (b) the fact that some Ukrainians had collaborated with the Nazis in the killings. However, as I understand it, the Soviets did not attempt to conceal the fact that a Nazi massacre had taken place at Babi Yar, which in their book was one of many Nazi atrocities against Soviet citizens. Open to other information on this. Nandt1 16:52, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The Soviet authorities did not conceal the Babi Yar massacre. What they did was to unfailingly present it as a massacre of "Soviet citizens", never once mentioning the specifically anti-semitic nature of the massacre. The fact that most of the victims were Jews was irrelevant to the Soviet authorities and never mentioned by them, they were only concerned with it as an attack on Soviet citizens. Perhaps "misrepresentation" or "distortion" would be a better term to use than either "failure to commemorate" or "concealment"? K. Lásztocska 17:33, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
As Lastochka/K. Lásztocska points out, we are not talking about the Soviet concelement of the Babi Yar massacre in terms of its occurance, the article was making a point about concelement of the Babi Yar massacre in terms of the Jews that died there. Nandt1, I think you yourself make this point in your message and we agree: "the Soviets did not attempt to conceal the fact that a Nazi massacre had taken place at Babi Yar." We are making a point that they tried to conceal the fact that the Nazi massacre at Babi Yar was predominately aimed at the Jews of the area - again something you agree with by saying that Soviets tried to avoid discussing that the Jews had been the first victims. I don't know how you interpret the meaning of "tried to avoid discussing" but that sure sounds like "concealment" in terms of who the majority of the victims were. And Yevtushenko's poem was specifically aimed at the outrage at the concealment of the Jewish death, not at the failure of the Soviet government to raise a monument. If what you're saying is true, and I agree that it is true, that the Soviet government preferred focusing on the Soviet deaths, why would they not commemorate the place that so many Soviets died at? They did not commemorate percisely because they tried to conceal the fact that the majority of victims were Jews. Yevtushenko's shock at the failure of the Soviet government to raise the monument at the site had a reason - the conceleament of Jews as victims and anti-semitism rampant in Soviet Union. He wasn't just shocked that the monument was not raised for the meer fact that it was not raised at the spot were so many Soviets died. He was shocked that it was not raised persisely because the Jews were concealed as victims and so no monument was raised to their memory. This might seem like semantics, but that's my understanding. He was outraged more about the concelement that underley the reason for the failure raise the monument. Without the concealment of Jewis victims, there wouldn't be any reason for the Soviet government to not raise the monument. And congrats on seeing Yevtushenko personally. Although this was likely not your intention, but your comments seem to convey that you think that meeting or seeing Yevtushenko give you views an added level of authority. I may be wrong in interpreting your comments above and while you may actually have an added level of authority after meeting or seeing Yevtushenko at Babi Yar symphony at the University of Maryland, having met Yevtushenko myself a few times over the last 13 years, I would still urge people to cite anything that they change, something that you agree with also. --RossF18 17:55, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
That said, I think your (thanks K. Lásztocska) refrazing of the sentence works well and I'd leave it.--RossF18 18:00, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, glad you like it. although given that apparently all three of us are personally acquainted with Mr. Yevtushenko, I almost wonder if maybe we shouldn't just get him on here to say for himself why he wrote the poem and what it all means. :) K. Lásztocska 18:05, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Sounds like a plan. :) I think you have the best chance of that since if I remember correctly you actually go to the university he teaches at (my memory can be faulty) --RossF18 18:09, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I did for a while, but I don't anymore. I took a literature class from him earlier this year that was just the coolest thing imaginable--when we were reading Pasternak, he would just spin off into a long series of reminiscences of the time he spent with Pasternak out at the dacha. Another writer would set off another rambling memoir of life, love, literature and philosophy in the Soviet Union. He's really quite brilliant--at times it would seem like he was just wandering through a stream of consciousness, but then at the end he would tie it all together with one perfectly-chosen image...oooh it brought out the poet in me, to be sure... :) I also *love* his fashion sense. :) K. Lásztocska 18:15, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, you were very lucky (he's definitely one of the greats) and yes, he has most *unique* fashion sense. --RossF18 18:20, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't think I'll ever forget those bright purple pants...or the pink hat...or the bright blue shirt with the huge orange flowers...or the time he wore all of the afore-mentioned items at once... :) K. Lásztocska 18:22, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Ah, yes, and those jackets of his. Genius. :) --RossF18 18:26, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Patchwork pants and a Chinese-print silk shirt in March!! I also love how sometimes he gets stuck on a particularly evocative phrase or expression and repeats it every day for a month--he was especially fond of "big cheese" and "backseat driver" last spring. :) K. Lásztocska 18:31, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the present language ("he denounced the Soviet distortion of historical fact regarding the Nazi massacre of the Jewish population") is more accurate than what was in the article before ("he denounced the Soviet concealment of the Nazi massacre of the Jewish population"). I made and make, though, no claim to know the poet personally. Nandt1 18:38, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

On a somewhat of a side-topic: do we have an article on the Babi Yar massacre? K. Lásztocska 18:40, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, see under Babi Yar. Nandt1 18:49, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality issues 1

Recently, thanks in large part to the tireless efforts of one particular user, this article has ceased to be a biography and has turned instead into a collection of disparaging quotations and unfavorable commentary loosely held together by a chronological framework and a few references to specific poems. This article is now unencyclopedic, biased, uninformative and in short, unacceptable by any higher standards that an encyclopedia should hold itself to.

As it stands, some serious re-writing is needed. I would not be in the slightest bit opposed to a "Criticism" section (although in the interest of balance we should also include some laudatory quotes--perhaps we could put both positive and negative reactions under the heading of "Reception"?) but scattering insulting remarks and commentary throughout the article like confetti (especially in a biography of a living person) is unprofessional and absurd.

I regret that I am busy enough in real life for a few more weeks now to be incapable of doing any large-scale Wiki work, but I post here in the hopes that someone with a bit more spare time can. K. Lásztocskatalk 18:58, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality issues 2

Recently, thanks in a great part to the tireless efforts of the another particular user, the article has been turned into a an eulogy, a praise of Mr Yevtushenko and whatever he has done in his life. This user, as well as a few others (whose command of English isn't as good as his, as I sadly note) not only think Yevtushenko untouchable but also oppose to any revelation of the controversies surrounding this literary figure. Every time I try to reach the balance yet another user offers to add more 'laudatory quotes' (!!), as if the whole article isn't laudatory enough, much more than you would expect of an encyclopedia article. I regret that I am too busy to correct all the mistakes and nonsensical things that keep finding their way into this article.--Badvibes101 (talk) 23:50, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Please, enough with this mock civility. If you have something to say, please say it. Stop with the underhanded insults and jabs at one another. Several points: (1) the article that has a large criticism section in it hardly reads like a eulogy (which by the way is when a person dies, which is in itself kind of nice of you to say about a person still alive). (2) Critique is good. Please add more of it if you'd like, however, please do not pretend that the critique you add is just by ordinary poets who liked Yevtushenko or just purely commented on his poetry. The quotes that you added, Badvibes, were truly bad vibes, pun intended and were spoken by poets who hated Yevtushenko's politics first, even after he tried to help them, not necessarily his poetry and while having these quotes is fine, not saying that these poets were fiercly hateful of the soviet government and anyone who even remotely looked like they were working with the government does not present the whole picture, which is needed in an encyclopedia article. If these poets were all friends, there would be no problems with critiques without any parantheticals or anything else. However, givent that one poet who commented on Yevtushenko lost all of her family to the Soviet regime and Brodsky was imprisoned and came to U.S. the first chance he got doesn't really make them all too objective in commenting on Yevtushenko's actual poetry and this should be made clear, while the quotes remain in the article (again, because it shows that their comments may have had other motivations besides pure analysis of Yevtushenko's poetry just for the love of poetry itself). Also, (3) please do not think that the quote dealing with Putin magically morphing into a quick reference about how terrible and authoritative Putin is has gone unseen. Yes, Putin has had certain liberties with freedoms in Russia, but this is not the forum for that and if people want to see why Yevtushenko was criticised for supporting Putin, they can go to Putin's website after a brief comment is made about Putin's liberties, not about his "authoritative regime" which is going a bit overboard. The combination of quotes that you added, while they should remain, without any further context make Yevtushenko out into this monster who was just a pawn of the Soviet machine that killed people and imprisoned people and only wrote poetry that they told him to and is notnow in league with an "dictator" Putin and he's just terrible poet becauase he was actually able to get published in USSR at the time when the poets whose quotes you include have not been able to get published. But, that's not really Yevtushenko's fault, and if anything, that just shows how much shrewdness he had to be able to work the system so that he was still able to publish in the country that was so oppressive and although he likely wasn't able to publish as freely as he or Brodsky wanted, he was still getting a freedom message out to the people that were repressed instead of being exciled and imprissoned and banned with no hope of reaching the Russian people and then moving to U.S. when communists were still in power. So, please do not accuse other editors of bias toward Yevtushenko and then go out of your way, in the name of balance, to make him out into some pawn who was a terrible poet disliked by everyone but the lowly people of Russia and authoritarian dictators. It's always heartening to see that editors have so much time to add such spitful quotations without reference and then don't devote any time to also finding supportive quotes for Yevtushenko. If you really want balance, you should have balanced your quotes with quotes by others in support of Yevtushenko. (4) Last point for now: it's very convenient how your sources are in Russian. While there are quite a few Russian speakers who can verify the quotes, this is the English branch of Wiki and as such, you should look for English sources first and leave the Russian sources for Russian Wiki article on Yevtushenko. If all you can find are Russian sources by poets you claim are impartial, but who are not, please do not resist the parantheticals that give the background behind the statements of these poets. And, if you think a poet is avant-guard, find a site.--RossF18 (talk) 01:37, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
A suggestion on how to move forward: why not temporarily get rid of all the quotes and try to get the core biography itself up to some standard of encyclopedic writing? Just facts, no opinions on either side? (PS to Badvibes: I am in fact a native speaker of English.) K. Lásztocskatalk 04:14, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
That's a good idea, I'm just concerned about how "bare bones" it would look without any quotes and also about how I'm not sure this article will get sufficient attention of a core article aside from just a few editors. Another concern is that while quotes can be biased, if we put them in the proper context, they can be helpful beucause it is often hard to find bare facts (either from Russia or from U.S. sources) that are not collored by the opinion of the person who wrote the article just giving the facts. It seems with Yevtushenko, having been a poet of a very turbulent era, it would be difficult to get the really relevant facts straight without the use of quotes put into proper context. The basic facts like when he wrote something and were he lived and who he married and what films he starred in and facts like those are simple enough, but those are really just bare bones and don't really compare to other articles of poets that often have Legacy sections in them that give the poet's position in the broader literary world.
THUS, perhaps we can have just the bare facts like his family info, his birth info, etc., then a section that briefly describes just his professional career (poems, movies, and then employment as professor) with perhaps some quotes that are restricted to/deal only with his poetry from neutral poets who have nothing to do with the politics in Russia at the time. Last, we could have the Legacy section where we can spiral down all of the quotes, both positive and negative in their proper context (with that large controversy section with Brodsky letter and stuff as a subheading). This way, people will get a really basic overview of his professional life before plunging into all of the politics that Yevtushenko was involved (i.e., all of the apparent mini feuds and the whole debate about which poet hates the soviet government more).--RossF18 05:11, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Timeyevtushenko.jpg

Image:Timeyevtushenko.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 02:37, 12 February 2008 (UTC)