User talk:Xic667

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[edit] Welcome

Hello, Xic667! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. You may benefit from following some of the links below, which will help you get the most out of Wikipedia. If you have any questions you can ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or by typing four tildes "~~~~"; this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you are already loving Wikipedia you might want to consider being "adopted" by a more experienced editor or joining a WikiProject to collaborate with others in creating and improving articles of your interest. Click here for a directory of all the WikiProjects. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Happy editing! Wwwhatsup (talk) 08:33, 17 January 2008 (UTC) Getting Started Wikipedia Tutorial • The five pillars of Wikipedia How to: edit a page • upload an image Getting Help Frequently Asked Questions Where to ask questions or make comments Request administrator attention Policies and Guidelines Neutral point of view • Reliable sources Verifiability • Citing sources • No original research What Wikipedia is not • Biographies of living persons Manual of Style • Three-revert rule • Sock puppetry Copyrights • Policy for non-free content • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability The Community Community Portal • Adopt-a-user program Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • Resolving disputes Build consensus • Village pump Signpost • IRC channels • Mailing lists Things to do Be bold in editing • Help develop an article Pages needing attention • Peer review Join a WikiProject • Translating articles Cleaning up: General • Spam • Vandalism Miscellaneous Categories • Disambiguity • Stubs User pages • Talk pages Useful templates • Tools • User scripts

I see you seem to have sorted out your problem. I don't understand what could have caused that warning. I do see a french entry. It does seem that he might be considered primarily a trip-hop artist, who uses elements of hip-hop in his music.. Wwwhatsup (talk) 20:20, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] RE: Alternative rock

I replied to your comment on the talk page for Alternative rock. I was baffled by the redirect on the French Wiki, and defintiely think there should be two articles. WesleyDodds (talk) 00:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I see there's some discussion on the French talk page as well as your French Wiki user page. I can't read (most) French, but if you have any further questions, you can ask me directly on my talk page. WesleyDodds (talk) 22:52, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, we haven't gotten around to working on Indie rock too much, so do what you like on the French Wiki. I saw something on your French talk page about Grunge music and indie rock. Grunge is not indie rock, but both are types of alternative rock. WesleyDodds (talk) 00:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

By the way, what you seem to be writing is actually a summary of Independent music, which is music released on independent record labels, rather than an article on indie rock. Indie rock didn't exist until the 1980s. WesleyDodds (talk) 01:00, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Grunge is influenced by indie rock only in the sense that when grunge was created in the late 1980s "indie rock" and "alternative rock" meant the same thing. Some important indie rock bands include Pavement, Sebadoh, Belle & Sebastian, Modest Mouse, and Franz Ferdinand. WesleyDodds (talk) 09:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

It's true that it's hard to categorize indie rock (and it's hard to categorize alternative rock to an extent). But one thing that's certain is that grunge is not a form of indie rock, as established by the consensus of sources. WesleyDodds (talk) 10:25, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Read Grunge music, which is a featured article. It uses the best and most reliable sources available (and there are a lot available). WesleyDodds (talk) 10:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

It explains it. In short, grunge is a regional style of alternative rock from Seattle based on distorted, sludgy guitars that mix punk and metal, and lyrics about apathy or depression, with an intentionally "anti-rock star" image. That's what grunge is. WesleyDodds (talk) 10:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

My assertations are based on the research I've done on the Grunge music article, which is based on reliable sources. Additionally, Cobain also called Nirvana "alternative" quite frequently. He just never liked the term "grunge". WesleyDodds (talk) 11:04, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Not exactly. Two important things are that grunge bands almost all came from the Seattle indie music scene (and was promoted as a "grunge" sound by the Seattle record label Sub Pop), and they had a heavy, guitar-based sound that mixed elements of punk and heavy metal. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:13, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see which point contradicts the definition of indy rock. In particular the dirty "lo-fi" sound, that caracterizes grand part of the Sub Pop production. I ve never said Grunge=indie rock; just grunge can be considered as a part of indy rock. Isn't a wide part of indy rock a mix of influences coming from punk and heavymetal/hard rock? Xic667 (talk) 11:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

No. Indie rock in fact largely rejects heavy metal and hard rock. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Really, no. Heavy metal and hard rock were (and to a large extent still are) disdained in indie music scenes. That's because alternative rock comes from punk rock, and punk and heavy rock were opposed to each other. Grunge was part of a phase in alternative rock in the late 1980s that tried to reevaluate and relegitimize metal/hard rock. However, when grunge became the mainstream embodiment of alternative rock in the early 1990s, indie rock bands acted as a reaction to that, particularly the lo-fi movement, and rejected heavy rock influences. Pavement, one of the most important indie rock bands of the 1990s, was influenced by The Fall and wrote a song that criticized The Smashing Pumpkins and Stone Temple Pilots. WesleyDodds (talk) 12:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not saying no indie rock bands are influenced by heavy metal and hard rock. What I'm saying is that an essential aspect to defining grunge is its influence by heavy metal and hard rock bands like Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath. Indie rock largely refutes these bands. WesleyDodds (talk) 12:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I gather you aren't a native English speaker, so I'm sorry if my words might be confusing. What I am trying to say is that all grunge bands are musically influenced by Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, or both. Few indie rock bands are musically influenced by Black Sabbath or Led Zeppelin. WesleyDodds (talk) 12:42, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Sure it was innovative, but that doesn't mean grunge is indie rock. "Indie rock" today largely refers to the alternative bands that stayed underground after Nirvana's breakthrough. WesleyDodds (talk) 00:21, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Everything I've been telling you is based on sources. For instance, that definition of indie rock can be found here. I find it odd that you dismiss several of my points by claiming the genre definitions are unclear. The fact is you can hold the opinions you desire, but information integrated into Wikipedia must be based on reliable sources, and this is what reliable sources have to say about these topics. WesleyDodds (talk) 07:29, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The contradiction is that sources don't say "grunge is a type of indie rock". Sources do say "grunge is a type of alternative rock". WesleyDodds (talk) 08:56, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

What I've been saying is that grunge is not "indie rock" as it is defined today, which is what the link says. It is indie rock in the sense that "indie rock" was one of the names for "alternative rock" before "alternative rock" becamee the popular name (the genre also used to be called "College rock" and "post-modern"). In order to avoid confusion, "indie rock" is used these days to refer to post-Nirvana bands since the 1990s that stayed underground on indie labels. When refering to bands before that, it's easier to just say "alternative rock" to avoid confusion. WesleyDodds (talk) 09:08, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Look, it's like this: while there are exact boundaries of alternative rock are sometimes debated and there is debate over whether certain style are are aren't alt-rock (one is emo), the genres that are always agreed to make up alternative rock are grunge, indie rock, gothic rock, Britpop, shoegazing, and indie pop. You understand English, so I insist you read the English sources available. WesleyDodds (talk) 09:15, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I like 80s alternative rock a lot. WesleyDodds (talk) 09:16, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

"Alternative" meant underground/obscure/uncommercial before the genre became popular. It's funny, these days I've heard people complaining "indie" has lost it's meaning. WesleyDodds (talk) 10:08, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not French so I can't tell you how pervasive it is over there, but the earliest uses of "Alternative rock" in the United States come from the mid-1980s. The earliest use in print I've found is from an issue of Rolling Stone in 1985. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:53, 11 February 2008 (UTC)