Template talk:WRC driver

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[edit] Syntax

Example from Henri Toivonen:

{{WRC driver
| Name = Henri Toivonen
| Image = [[Image:Henri Toivonen.jpg]]
| Caption = Henri Toivonen during his [[Martini Racing]] era.
| Nationality = {{flagicon|FIN}} [[Finland|Finnish]]
| Years = 1975 - 1986
| Teams =  [[Talbot]], [[Opel]], [[Porsche]], [[Lancia]]
| Races = 40
| Championships = 0
| Wins = 3
| Podiums = 11
| Stagewins = 183
| Points = 194
| First race = 1975 [[1000 Lakes Rally]]
| First win = 1980 [[Lombard RAC Rally]]
| Last win = 1986 [[Monte Carlo Rally]]
| Last race = 1986 [[Tour de Corse]]
}}

[edit] Too many compulsory parameters?

I'm in the middle of creating a page for a former British Rally championship winning driver and wanted to use the WRC infobox. However, I notice a couple of wee problems. First, shouldn't it be at {{Infobox WRC driver}} instead of just {{WRC driver}}. Second, do we really need the parameters Championships, Wins, Podium finishes, Stage wins, and Points to be forced to appear? Lots of drivers only competed sporadically, or in their home events, and so never really competed in championships (the guy I'm doing was in 30 WRC events over his 20 year career). Similarly, if they were only competing in 1-2 WRC races per year they were never accumulating many career points. This might work for the regulars like Loeb, Sainz, etc, but lower down the order I think it's not so effective. How would others feel about having these fields not appear if left blank? --DeLarge 16:13, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm looking at improving and expanding this template considerably as part of a motorsport infobox improvement drive. Partly, I want to address the recent merger proposal (which is over zealous). I will probably open a new discussion at WT:MOTOR shortly, and I would appreciate input from editors such as yourself with regard to what fields you would like to see and how they should be configured. Adrian M. H. 11:56, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Addition of parameter

In the case of Colin McRae we have the situation where people are edit warring over the issue of his nationality. There seem to be the following arguements 1) he associated himself with Scotland therefore he should be scottish 2) the FIA can't define nationality 3) Scotland isn't a country therefore he was British 4) He represented Britain.

To resolve this I suggest using two paramaters, one for the country they represent (which would remain as now, for backwards compatability, but possibly with the label renamed to stop arguments), and a new one for the country/region they are from. This would hopefully be a compromise which would solve all those problems. John Hayes^talk 09:44, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

How do you define "the country/region they are from"? Where they were born? Where they live now? Where they lived most of their life? The359 10:17, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

That is a very good question, to a large extent this situation will never occur, and in this case it is pretty obvious. I just don't see how else to provide a solution which is acceptable to both sides. John Hayes^talk 10:21, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Can we do your proposal for Belgium's two halves as well? And Spain's regions? And Germany's regions? What about the USA's states? And Australia's states? And Brazil's states? Bohemia and Moravia? Can we add a European flag to Bertrand Gachot? You see where I'm getting at? Why does the UK need to get a special dispensation? --Pc13 11:51, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

It's not really about the UK, but about anywhere were a driver associates with one country, but drives for another. My personal belief is that Scotland is not a country, and therefore the whole discussion is pointless, but that's my POV, and the consensus seems to have decided that it is, and Nationality seems to suggest nationality is not all about citizenship. How else do you suggest this sort of case is handled. In your examples I can't think of a driver who associates with say Wallonia, Bavaria, Basque country etc, but if they did it may apply to them too. John Hayes^talk 12:36, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I do not see how it is POV. The consensus on WP:MOTOR was that nationality is based on a driver's racing license. Since Scotland does not issue racing licenses, a driver can only be lised as from the United Kingdom. This is hardly a POV. The Colin McRae article clearly states in the text that the driver is from Scotland, which is true. This is no different from stating that someone is from Pennsylvania. However the WRC infobox is also true in stating his nationality as British, since that is the country he represents in motorsport.

I should also point out that the United Nations does not list Scotland, Wales, or Northern Ireland as seperate countries, nor the European Union. The359 20:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Fine. no change then. John Hayes^talk 22:37, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

There are quite a few of us who agree with your point of view, John. We tried, but failed, to get a style guideline accepted. Had it gone through, it would or might have helped to reduce these disputes and revert wars, but it was crushed under a weight of nationalistic fervour and bad faith. Pity. Having two fields is far from ideal; it may help editors, but it will be bad for the readers of Wikipedia. Adrian M. H. 12:49, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

(deindent) Why don't you list BOTH flags? You could do this for U.S. states and other situations where multiple flags could be applicable. You could use 3 flags if they are part of the E.U. Royalbroil 13:42, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Ooh, I'm not sure about that. Flagcruft, anyone? There is currently a discussion about this at Use of flags in articles. I like to see a flag included, not for any patriotic reasons (I'm apathetic about that) but for illustrative and decorative advantages. However, a number of editors want to see their use reduced or even cut out completely (except for geographical articles). Adrian M. H. 14:15, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, and for pointing out the discussion. It's about time that this problem gets addressed. Sometimes having 2 flags is better than edit warring over one, but I like no flag best. Royalbroil 15:10, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another suggestion for nationality

I have had another idea which might solve the Colin McRae issue. This problem seems to be rooted in the discussion of whether this template only represents the driver, or the person as a whole. While it should probably only be the driver, to the reader it is more likely to be seen as their life as a whole, hence the large amount of people wanting to change his Nationality parameter to Scottish. To solve this, it needs to be made clear to the reader that it refers to their represented nationality when racing, not their actual background. Hence I would suggest changing the text (not the variable itself) to "Represented Nationality", or just "Represented". John Hayes^talk 16:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

That might provide a solution, apart from those who will insist that McRae or whoever represents Scotland, Wales or Transnistria. However, it would be a very big change because we can't really do that to just one or two templates when there will be many other sports (and other bio) templates that do it differently. Put that in front of the wider community and most editors will ask "why do it differently? It looks odd" and I know from experience that proposing changes like this one, even if it is an improvement, is often not well received. So you either end up with inconsistency or you end up not making any change. If you could get consensus to support this for sports infoboxes in general, and evidence that it would have the desired effect, then it would be worth pursuing. Adrian M. H. 21:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dates

This template contains a lot of data which can get stale very quickly. Note e.g. Henning Solberg, which hasn't been updated in some months but he's been active in rallying in that time (and secured a podium in Japan I believe). Either somebody needs to take responsibility for keeping the data up to date for all WRC drivers, or a "Last updated" field needs to be added. --kingboyk 10:14, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more about the need to update records. I think that editors have some responsibility to check and update any articles in which they have a vested interest (created or substantially rewritten, for example). The "last updated" field quite often gets missed by editors, but at least it serves to show that the data may be out of date. Adrian M. H. 12:27, 31 October 2007 (UTC)