Talk:Worcestershire sauce

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Presumably the gentlemen referenced here is Arthur Marcus Cecil Sandys, 3rd Baron Sandys (1798-1863). However his name does not appear in our list of governor's of Bengal (Governor-General of India) or in this list. so methinks the story has got mangled along the road somewhere. Mintguy (T) 04:02, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I'm unsure where /Wus-t9r-sh9r/ comes from. In England it is correctly pronounced as /Wus-t9r/ sauce and spelt Worcestershire Sauce. This is just one of those things.

I'm guessing that correctly it is /Wus-t9r-sh9r/, but just that Worcestershire is commonly (almost always?) abbreviated to Worcester (pron. /Wus-t9r/). Just a guess. zoney ♣ talk 01:14, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
With there being two brands (the original being with the -shire) many people don't know the difference, as proven by the problems Sudan I caused for Lea & Perrins. It's just become a short form (ie. lazy) alternative and is not the correct way to pronounce it. violet/riga (t) 21:04, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Is it that Lea & Perrins is Worcestershire Sauce, and others are Worcester Sauce ? -- Beardo 04:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I am American and in my experience it is either pronounced /Wus-t9r-sh9r/ or /Wus-ch9r-st9r-sh9r-sh9r-sh9r/ sauce with progressively longer pauses between syllables. Perhaps it's best not to list this second pronunciation in the article. However, it might be a good idea to explain how the sauce's popularity spread and the sauce's appearance in popular culture such in the cartoon South Park where it was used as embalming fluid creating zombies.Onionhound 10:23, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Let me attempt to clear all this up. This is as far as I understand a result of Lea & Perrins marketing. In England it is called Worcester Sauce (pronounced Wuss-ter) after the city. In America for marketing purposes it is called Worcestershire Sauce (Wuss-ter-shire) after the county and comes in a pretty bottle.--Pypex 00:22, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Completely False. It's always been Worcestershire Sauce look at this bottle from an ad from 1928 and the writ from 1906 on http://www.worcestercitymuseums.org.uk/mag/spirit/spsauce.htm - it's just people have usually called it Worcester, because people always make things easier for themselves. Jooler
That site doesn't exactly directly address the issue, additionaly my statement is derived from a BBC documentery on the subject.--Pypex 12:40, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Actualy on second thoughts Website Vs TV doesnt make for much of an argument and you may well be right. I'll check it out at Worcester Museum next time im in the city (quite frequently.)--Pypex 13:08, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
The evidence is before your eyes. It was caleld Worcestershire sauce in 1906 and thet fought a legal action to preserve the name and it has had Worcestershire Sauce on the bottle in the UK since at least 1928. Jooler 19:26, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
References to South Park, like a dash of Worcestershire sauce itself, always add a note of flavor and depth. --Wetman 18:27, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Sudan I

If I understand correctly, there never was any Sudan I contamination in Worcestershire sauce. So why have all the links at the bottom of the page to Sudan I information - wouldn't these sit better on the Sudan I page?

Even if I am wrong (entirely possible), there seems to be a very strong emphasis on what was a brief event (the food dye scare).

I'm not editing the page directly in case I am missing something - always best to hesitate before deleting someone elses work ;-)

No Sudan I contamination in Lea & Perrins Worcestershire Sauce - the contamination came from other brands - which are surely also subject of this article. -- Beardo 04:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of "Gip jup", and the Army Report

The article currently says: The Cantonese name for this sauce is "gip jup". It is unknown how this Chinese name is derived from the original English name.

When I read "gip jup" I immediately thought it sounded somewhat like "catsup" or "ketchup"... perhaps the name comes from that? I can easily imagine a situation in which the Cantonese, if they already knew "catsup", could have thought this was simply another variety of the popular foreign sauce.

On a less related note, does anyone have any ideas on where to find the 17-page Army report on how to buy Worcestershire Sauce? I'm very interested in reading it, but have no idea where to start looking.

--69.2.248.251 21:18, 30 June 2006 (UTC) Mac Newbold, mac at macnewbold dot com

According to the wiki article on "Ketchup" and dictionary.com's entry, the origin of the word is Chinese and it was originally a sauce made from pickled fish, which is almost Worcestershire sauce. Chane 12:11, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sudan I sections

Why is so much space in the article given over to the brief Sudan I scare for one brand of worcestershire sauce in 2005? It verges on an undue weight issue. It was positioned high in the article too (which I've now fixed). It does not seem to be particularly relevant to an encyclopedia article. Wikipedia is not a news report archive. I recommend a severe cutting down or better, a cutting out altogether Bwithh 19:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Removing this section now as unjustified undue weight/unencyclopedic - Wikipedia is not a news report archive and this brief scare did not have significant long term consequences (the original contaminatin was in chilli powder - should the story be given its own section in Chili powder as well?). Bwithh 10:21, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

Can someone add a pronunciation that most people can actually understand? I bet the people that don't know how to properly say it also don't know IPA, so an IPA pronunciation does no good for those who need it. Qutezuce 21:59, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I added an old pronunciation from an old revision of this article. If it's not right, someone please improve it. Qutezuce 21:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Wuhster-shuh would be the way RP English pronounces the American name Plutonium27 13:19, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Wooster is the RP pronunciation for worcestershire Michael Fourman 22:22, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

On a related note, is it worth including (only to refute) the 'What's this here sauce' derivation of the name? Omassey (talk) 13:57, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Trivial cruft

Let's not start this here: "'In the South Park episode Pinkeye, a bottle of Worcestershire Sauce tips over and empties into embalming fluid, turning the corpse into a zombie." This note might be inserted at the South Park episode. Not here, where it does not serve the reader. --Wetman 04:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree! LDHan 08:36, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Japanese Worcestershire sauce

Are the sauces mentioned in this section actually Worcestershire sauce or at least generic Worcester sauces? Perhaps they are actually Worcestershire sauces made by Lea & Perrin but adapted for the Japanese market? Or are they just a spicy and fruity sauce called "Worcestershire sauce"? Unless they have some connection with Lea & Perrin, or is a generic Worcester sauce, I suggest they would more appropriate in articles such as Japanese condiments or Japanese cuisine. LDHan 08:36, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Gambler's Wife?

I've never heard of this novel, "The Gambler's Wife," which was allegedly attributed to Poe in America in 1845. Now, just because I haven't heard of it doesn't mean it's not true, obviously, but I'm hoping a source for that claim can be added. It's not particularly consequential to this article anyway so if no source can be found, I'd recommend removing it. --Midnightdreary 16:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, it is a true statement (i.e. it was written by Grey but published in the States with Poe as the author) but it is a bit random and off-topic for a footnote... I've removed it.--Isotope23 17:03, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Nicely done. Thanks for your quick response! I'll have to look this one up again. None of the three Poe biographies I have mention "The Gambler's Wife." --Midnightdreary 04:13, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] garum-style fish sauce or tamarind sauce?

I disagree that Worcestershire sauce tastes like a garum. Nam pla tastes like a garum. To me, the dominant flavor in WS is tamarind, but this ingredient is given short shrift in the article. Perhaps it is a question of palate. Of course, this makes perfect sense when considering the sauce's provenance. Fresh tamarind condiments are de rigeur on the Indian subcontinent. Tamarind and lemon are the two most common acidizers, as I understand it, in the cuisine. This has continued in the US, at least, where a separate dish of thin tamarind fresh chutney is almost universally served with meals--usually without vinegar. So I'd call WS a tamarind/vinegar condiment with strong notes of anchovies made pungent by fermentation. I'd like to make some reference to this, but I cannot claim to have much knowledge about the history of the sauce itself. But I can look. Disagreement? NaySay 15:12, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd disagree that tamarind is the dominant flavor in Worcestershire sauce... at least not in the commercially popular brands like L&P or Heinz... at least not so much as HP Sauce is dominated by tamarind. That said, I agree the garum comparison is wrong as well. As you've said though, this may merely be a question of palate. I always seem to get the onion, anchovies, and molasses with the tamarind below those flavors mellowing the whole concoction out. Of course this whole conversation has now succeeded in making me hungry for samosas with tamarind chutney.--Isotope23 talk 15:29, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, so I went back to my bottle of Lea & Perrins and gave it another careful taste. I've got to say that tamarind still predominates, but I will concede that I had missed the strong note of molasses, because my palate has been distracted by the vinegar. I'd now say tamarind/vinegar/molasses. I guess I'm now slightly more aware of the anchovy. And of course we've been ignoring the strong influence of chilli pepper. If found that the larger the taste sample, however, the more the tamarind is masked. You know, I wonder if this is a function of how L&P is made here in the US, in Fairlawn, NJ, as opposed to the UK. I find that almost all UK products which are re-assembled here have been markedly revamped. (I ALWAYS feel like eating pakoras with tamarind chutney!) NaySay 20:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Of course this is all original research, but I'll have another taste of L&P when I get home; you may be onto something with the country of origin. I won't bore you with a rant of how HP Sauce was better back in the day...--Isotope23 talk 21:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Gosh, everything was better back in the day. You wouldn't BELIEVE what Schwepp's tonic and ginger ale tastes like here! It's just not at all the same product. And getting anchovy paste and raw egg in your Caesar salad dressing is pretty much unheard-of now--at least here. And the frequent distaste for anchovy flavoring in the US may be accounting for the reformulation--if one exists. NaySay 13:28, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, don't make me all misty eyed for a real Caesar salad...
I finally got home this weekend and pulled out a bottle of L&P. I can taste the tamarind more than I had recalled. What would be helpful is finding some sort of source for the flavor...--Isotope23 talk 00:04, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, Lea & Perrins Worcestershire Sauce in the United States is made with high fructose corn syrup, versus sugar in the UK.

[edit] Kosher version

I moved a piece about Orthodox Jewish customs out of the "see also" back to the preceeding section, but it needs attention from someone who can explain why there's no anchovy.Ning-ning (talk) 17:53, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] HIgh fructose corn Syrup.

  • I find the labels to have the following ingredient listed second on both L&P and Heinz: High fructose corn syrup. 74.34.7.1 (talk) 23:17, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

(Moved the above comment from article --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 04:17, 14 April 2008 (UTC))

[edit] kosher recipes

The vegetarian option section is unclear. It seems to state both that orthodox jews do and do-not eat meat and fish together. Which is true? Can someone with a source correct? --Brideshead (talk) 15:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC)