Talk:Within Temptation

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Contents

[edit] Read

Sn0wflake: READ THIS PLEASE. About the official source of Unet, just check www.within-temptation.com (look where the chat points at, etc) or the Umbranet. grtz, the WT hostmaster. Please revert changes.

[edit] Interesting

It would be interesting if the maintained actually reads this... Put this chatnet on the Wiki, it's trivial history of the band. Or should we have ppl with more rights on Wikipedia to join this discussion?

Sn0wflake: Why is there a link to the official fanclub which is merely commercial in the sense that it doesn't have added value (hence, it gives the same info as on the WT mainsite) but only allows you to be on the member pages and the forum if you contributed admission fee. It's a commercial site. Maybe it's better to link with an independent and objective source on Within Temptation. Or AT LEAST add a message that one must pay for the official fanclub site...

Also, what most people don't know or underestimate: Within Temptation became big with help of the internet! The die-hard people of the first hour, community chatters at Umbranet who contributed a lot of their energy and time (advertising and voting for WT) caused Within Temptation to get airplay the very first time on the Cybertop50 in The Netherlands (remember the Ice Queen breakthrough?), followed up by some airplay on Dutch radio and these people caused several weeks airplay on VIVA+ TV through internet voting; introducing WT to the general German public). Therefore; this open community platform Umbranet (which serves more bands nowadays) should be mentioned in the wiki of this band. It IS part of WT history, and I think it's essential, if some internet things didn't happen, WT was most probably not known to much people outside The Netherlands nowadays and the bandmembers would retain their regular jobs. Don't forget your roots :)

By the way: the band officially calls itself "gothic rock", just check their website source. So one doesn't have to debate on the genre.

Hello. Searches on Google for Umbranet plus band names (such as Within Temptation or Ayreon return an insubstantial amount of hits. There is no mention of Umbranet on the bands' official websites either. Statistics for the channels also show low activity - relative to the scale of the Wikipedia. While I do not question that you are acting in good faith, Umbranet simply seems to lack notability to be included on the bands' articles. Official fanclubs, on the other hand, are what we call inherently notable. Which means they are notable by the very fact that they are official fanclubs. Contact me if you need further clarification. --Sn0wflake 20:48, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Hi, please check out the official sits and see where the chat leads to. Check the list of chatters on the band websits, that directly comes from Umbranet. So there IS a mention on the official websites, because their OFFICIAL chat runs there... And this system is open, not like the official fanclub which asks a financial contribution (then please at least mention this on the wiki). Also noting, a few of the Umbranet people are directly responsible for mainsites of some of the bands listed in Umbranet. Consider it to be a framework.

This dispute can be worked out in a simple manner, then. You may add the Umbranet external link if, and only if, the band's official website contains a weblink to the Umbranet website. When you add the external link to the Wikipedia article, please write the URL of where the link on the official website is at the "edit summary" box. Cheers. --Sn0wflake 17:51, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

I've removed "german". This is a Dutch band singing in English... If there is something like "german goth metal" then an explanation is needed what makes Within Temptation's songs "german goth metal" and not generic "goth metal". Shinobu 21:41, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This page is on my watchlist and I've seen "goth metal" edited in and out again for what seems like a million times. Since it is obviously possible to have different opinions in this matter, I tried to compromise by stating "goth metal / symph. metal". I hope this edit will give the article some peace. If you still feel inclined to change things, then I suggest discussing things here on the talk page first. Shinobu 17:44, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I actually edited out "goth metal" myself. Within Temptation is not goth metal. They lack plenty of elements of what it is to be goth. They are not dark or depressing. Their lyrics are about love, nature and fantasy, not darkness and despair. Their music is also light (for a metal band). Lenne 17:51, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Despite your shotgun approach to the situation, I tend to agree that Within Temptation cannot be considered a goth metal band. Perhaps "symhponic metal with gothic metal influences" is the ideal way to solve this problem? --Sn0wflake 18:36, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
But that's just the thing. They don't have gothic metal influences. If you can quote an article where they've stated they have gothic metal influences, or can give gothic metal influence examples from their music, I'd be for it. But right now, it's a no for me. Lenne 22:43, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

That "kursiefje" on "not" was uncalled for. Within Tempation's music can be seen as to agree with the definition stated in goth metal. The idea that "goth" means "dark & depressing" is in general not true.

That being said, music is something that is hard to define and classify. I know for a fact that a lot of people consider Within Tempation's music gothic to some degree or another and I don't think it's our job to judge in this matter - difference of opinion on this matter apparently exists. Editing out either of those opinions seems to me a bad idea. (It makes me wonder whether policy would allow that, now that I think of it.)

My intention was not to rekindle the Withing-Temptation-is-(not)-gothic-metal-debate, but to assert that differences of opinion exist and that we are tolerant to both sides. Shinobu 05:42, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Considering that the goth metal page lists Within Temptation as one of their bands suggests that it ought to be listed here. Personally I liked and agreed with the Goth/Symphonic categorization. They sure seem like a hybrid to me. - MordredKLB 18:15, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

Since goth metal is closely related genre, your choice) of symphonic metal, I don't think that this debate should really be occururing. What makes goth metal sound more depressive (I'm talking about bands such as Lacrimas Profundere and Theatre of Tragedy here) are the vocals, not the instruments themselves (which are most of the time tuned only a half-step down). Within Temptation does have gothic metal influences, but their main differential is Sharon den Adel, who sets herself apart from most female singers of the genre by using a different vocal style than other singers from the genre, despite singing in the same vocal range as them. So, to make my opinion clear, I stand by the "symhponic metal with gothic metal influences" descriptions, which respects all POVs. --Sn0wflake 21:05, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

From Symphonic metal:

Symphonic Metal is a subclass of the genre of metal music in general. It is characterised by its usage of a symphony orchestra throughout songs in order to add melody and texture to the heavy drums and distorted guitars of metal. The orchestra is generally kept in the background.

From Goth metal: Although gothic metal - like most metal subgenres - is difficult to classify, some main attributes have remained fairly consistent:

  • lyrics focus on a variety of subjects: religion and God, heaven and hell, romance, (gothic) horror, depression, bereavement, emptiness, and death. Typically, the subjects are set in a pre-20th century environment.
  • vocals are either sung by a male vocalist, female vocalist, or both. The male vocals are either in a deep tenor, or death grunt. Female vocals tend to be high and operatic, but sometimes sung in a regular tone with reverb usage for effects.
  • the guitar(s) and bass are often in minor key, but can also be slow and heavily distorted, as what would be heard in doom metal. Along with percussion (and sometimes synthesizers), the pace and tone is sometimes dependent on the performance of the singer or the nature of the song.
There are also (occasional) instances in which gothic metal crosses over into other genres, such as power metal and symphonic metal.

Maybe list it as a cross-over between symphonic m. & gothic m.? That would be consitent with Sn0wflakes "symphonic m. with gothic m. influences" while not explicitly defining where the focus lies, as this is debatable. Apart from that I agree with Sn0wflake's suggestion.

If I had known there to be so much debate on this, I'd have suggested this earlier, but perhaps a para's saying something like "W.T. can be classified sym.m. because ..., but also as got.m. because ...".

I think we should at least provide links to both genres (this is a pro of Sn0wflake's and MordredKLB's suggestions).

Wishing you all the best, Shinobu 22:32, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

I went ahead and was bold, but edit away if you disagree. Best regards. --Sn0wflake 00:43, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

I'll leave it as it is, after all "I too don't pretend to have the truth on lease". Yours sincerly, Shinobu 03:30, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

On a Google search of "Within Temptation goth/ic metal" - 598,000 results were found, and a search for "Within Temptation symphonic metal" - 137,000 results were found. Although this may not be very accurate, seeing as most of the Internet is nonsense. However their first album 'Enter' should not be disregarded: it most definately IS gothic metal - Sharon's voice is wailing and melancholy, there's a death metal male vocalist, songs are much slower and generally much more depressing. The lyrics are focused on ghost, death, romance, emptiness, hell and darkness in practically every song. Indeed, it may even be considered as Gothic Doom. In Flames 19:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

      • The swedish wikipedia says "WT is playing symphonic metal with goth-influences". What about that? I have only heard the album The Silent Force, and i dont consider it as goth. But, i have also heard some songs from another album, and it sounds much more as goth! But i think it is wrong to classify WT as "goth metal" and "goth rock". Why not add "symhonic metal"?

If the only album you've heard is The Silent Force, you should probably hear their back catalog (Enter and The Dance) to understand why they can be considered both Gothic and Symphonic Metal.Stargazer eternal (talk) 03:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree at all Within Temptation is metal. The band said they are rock, and even if you listen to "The Silent Force" and "The Heart of Everything", you realize it's way too soft to be considered metal - "The Heart of Everything" has even very few touches of symphonic metal music. Labelling is hard I know, but their music from "Enter" and "Mother Earth" to "The Silent Force" and "The Heart of Everything" is way too big. And I've never seen them as "Gothic Metal" at all, not even their first album and EP ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 04:46, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Popprijs 2005

GRONINGEN De Popprijs 2005 is gewonnen door Within Temptation. "Door deze groep heeft gothic metal in ons land een nieuw ijkpunt gekregen", zei de jury op het Noorderslagfestival in Groningen. Bron: NOS, 14-01-2005

Rough translation: GRONINGEN Within Temptation has won the Popprijs 2005. On the Noorderslagfestival in Groningen, the jury noted: "Because of this band, gothic metal in our country has gained a new reference point." Source: NOS, Jan. 14th, 2005

Shinobu 11:02, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Right thats good, when they have 'zilch' to go with Gothic Metal apart from steming from the genre. Leyasu 16:21, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Mother Earth" singles

The section regarding the Mother Earth album labels "Ice Queen" as the first single, however, the "Singles" section at the bottom lists "Our Farewell" to have come first. Which is correct? Their site lists Our Farewell as having come first, but I really don't know myself. The Son Of Nothing 23:45, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

The singles 'Our Farewell' and 'Ice Queen' were released. [1] — So I believe it was first Our Farewell. I'll correct it. Bryan 18:46, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Keyboards

There is a little mistake in the article, the intro says that Martijn Spierenburg was at the formation of WT, while the dates given lower in the article states that Ruud's brother Martijn Westerholt was at the formation, and left in 2001, being succeeded by Spiereburg. As Spierenburg is now the keyboardist in WT, and Westerholt did leave WT in 2001, I corrected the article. Bryan 14:35, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Say my name, Overcome

Overcome and Say my name are bonus tracks on 'Stand my ground' and 'Angels' [2] Bryan 18:47, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Member

The article states that there is a new band member as per 2006, for doing growls. This is definately not true. I am one of the forum moderators for WT and have regular contact with WT's management. I was informed five minutes ago that the rumour you posted on Wikipedia is definately nonsense and should be removed immediately. WT is currently working on a new album which should be released by the end of this year, but no details on guest appearances by any artist on that album have been made public yet.

You can confirm my presence on the WT-forum by looking up my username there, which is the same as my username here.

El Barkhuysen 16:57, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Within Temptation & Nightwish

Hi, I'm Rosey and i have bought both albums. AND it is not true that within copies off from nightwish (rumor as usual) so i had to tellllll you!!!!!!! there's such a bloody fucking diffrence between them. HAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHA go shit, have you read my shit page?! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Harja (talk • contribs) 17:36, 7 January 2007 (UTC).

Thank you for letting us know. Bryan 14:50, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Ofcourse they aren't. AkiShinji 11:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Eh, of course there is a difference. They are not in the same genre at all!! / visse.

[edit] Image

The image of the group and the description is for the old lineup. Ivar de Graaf has been replaced by Stephen von Haestregt as written on the official site: http://www.within-temptation.com/content/tpl_general.asp?pid=700&mid=699

[edit] Singles list

The list of singles in the discography section of the article is ever-changing. Can anyone provide a definitive, sourced, addition that can end the editing and reverting? Erath 20:52, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I copy that. Can someone please give some reference to a real Charttable and remove the table listed here? The one listed is not recent/complete anymore (i.e. why is "Restless" and "Our Farewell" listed though there is no chartentry? Why is there a US column - though there are no chartentries in those? Why is there no entry in the number one hits summary though "What Have You Done" is listed as a number one entry in Australia?). 6 June 2007

[edit] new album leaked

seems like the new album have been leaked I downloaded it yesterday.. I hope they hurry up and launch it before its hype goes down, I am definitly getting this!! it's a great album to buy! Can't wait for the tour album/dvd :D I found the silent force tour better than the album, Sharon's live performence is amazing <3 87.109.247.115 19:07, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Quoting right from the top of the article: "This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Within Temptation article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject." You have also just admitted piracy on an open website which anyone can read. Erath 19:35, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discography changes

I was the one who made those changes in Discography, I just forgot to log in. AkiShinji 11:20, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources needed

I'm trying to make this into a well sourced article. I need some verifiable sources, especially on the earlier years of Within Temptation and on criticism from the metal scene on Within Temptation. If anybody has some, please post them here. Bryan 19:01, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Chronicles of Spellborn

This is a new not yet released MMORPG from Within Temptation. I think it should be in the article.

See tcos.com

Ah, it's not by Within Temptation. The band only writes music for that MMORPG. And yes, it is mentioned in the article. Read closely and you will find the reference ;) Teo64x 15:47, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mother Earth Tour

I've edited the date of release of Mother Earth Tour DVD, cause before was wrong: you've writed 2003, but it's 2002.. bye..--Donbu 14:48, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] All I Need

Might someone want to mention the All I Need single?

[edit] UK Chart

Why isnt the UK album chart included ? isnt it the third biggest ?? might be something to include? (Neostinker (talk) 00:37, 25 November 2007 (UTC))


Why is there Billboard charts if WT doesn't list in any of those? A little pointless if you ask me~, and where the sources for those charts? ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 04:48, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Release of Enter & The Dance in US

I can't find anything on the internet about the release of Enter and The Dance in the US. Even their discography does not mention it, nor can I find some press release on it. I'm tempted to think that the ref that is given in the article just imports them from Europe. -- Bryan (talk|commons) 21:09, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I know they have the US versions of both CDs on amazon.com now. I'm sure many other online shops would carry the Season of Mist versions as well.Stargazer eternal (talk) 03:45, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] *Confused*

Why is their song "Blue Eyes" not mentioned anywhere? It's not on any of the albums, bonus tracks, EPs, or singles lists. I don't know where it's supposed to be or when it was released, sorry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.170.253.127 (talk • contribs)

Wikipedia is a good resource of information, but we don't hold all the answers. If you can find more information about the song, feel free to add it to the article. Cheers! -- ReyBrujo (talk) 02:39, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Did you by any chance get that song from a p2p network? There are plenty of songs that get mistagged so it could be that you have a song by different artist that is tagged as being by Within Temptation. Offski (talk) 22:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Blue Eyes was on the extended edition of What Have You Done. [3] -- Bryan (talk|commons) 15:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Yay for free images

Good that somebody has taken the time to remove those unfree images. Somebody has pictures lying around at the time WT brought out each album? -- Bryan (talk|commons) 19:45, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Edit summary is pretty clear. These images fit better the articles about the albums or singles than here, or any discography list. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 20:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I put those images there in a November 2005 edit, which predates the stringent rules on non-free content by some eighteen months. I understand the rules as is and a change needed to be made, but to resort to the ultimate layman's excuse, "it seemed like a good idea at the time". Erath (talk) 23:38, 17 April 2008 (UTC)