Talk:William IX of Aquitaine

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[edit] Henry of Poitou, Abbot of Cluny

According to the historian Alfred Richard, author of Histoire des comtes de Poitou, Henry's identification as a son of William IX was an error. Henry first appears as a prior of Cluny in an 1100 charter, making him far older than William's children. In addition, Henry is not named among the children of William IX in the chronicle of Saint-Maixent; I can't imagine such a prominent individual would've been overlooked had he in fact been a son of William.

To my knowledge, no early or near-contemporary source mentions any illegitimate children for William IX. That doesn't mean that he didn't have any, it just means none were recognized, or important enough to be mentioned. Henry's mother certainly wasn't William's most famous mistress, Dangereuse, who only took up with William around 1113. Raoul de Faye, who is sometimes listed as a son of Dangereuse and William, was actually Dangereuse's son by her husband. She and William don't seem to have had any children together.

Henry of Poitou was evidently of high birth, as mentioned by the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and the Laud Chronicle. But he doesn't seem to have been a son of William IX; indeed, he was closer to William's age in all probability. Missi 00:48, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

At what date can William have sent troops to fight for Philip I against William the Conqueror? User:Andrew Dalby 18:35, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

No kidding! I've removed that sentence. Could his father have done that? (He died 1086.) --Michael K. Smith 02:21, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: dating of Pos de chantar

Why have the lines, "My friends were Joy and Chivalry/But I from both must parted be" been removed? I didn't understand the edit summary. I was basing it upon Eleanor of Aquitaine (Marion Meade) in which she says, "In those last years, William determined to change his ways. Convinced that he must submit to God's will, he regretfully vowed to abandon his love of debauchery. My friends were Joy and Chivalry, he wrote, But I from both must parted be." Please could you explain properly here? Thanks. Michaelsanders 11:37, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The lines Meade quotes (De proez'e de joi fui,/Mais ara partem ambedui) are taken from the song, Pos de chantar m'es pres talenz, already mentioned and quoted in the article. Meade is wrong in dating it to the end of William's life: it's clear from the words that he is concerned about leaving his lands to a son who is clearly still a minor. Given the birth-date of William X, this places the song more probably at the time of his first excommunication, and worries about losing his land and life. People wrongly assume from the sentiments that it was written later than the political content suggests. (The "Foulques of Anjou" mentioned is Foulques V, later King of Jerusalem.) Here is the whole song:
   Since I have the desire to sing,
   I'll write a verse for which I'll grieve:
   I shall never be a vassal anymore
   in Poitou nor the Limousin.

   For now I shall go into exile:
   in great fear, in great peril,
   in war, shall I leave my son,
   and his neighbours shall do him harm.

   It's a heavy thing for me to leave
   the lordship of Poitiers:
   I leave Foulques of Anjou to guard
   the whole country and his cousin.

   If Foulques of Anjou doesn't aid him,
   or the king, of whom I hold my honours,
   most of them will war on him -
   scoundrel Gascons and Angevins.

   If he is neither wise nor worthy,
   as soon as I have gone from you,
   they will overthrow him,
   for they'll see him young and unfortunate.

   I beg my companion for mercy:
   if I have wronged him, that he forgive me,
   and pray to Jesus on his throne
   in the Romance and Latin tongues.

   I held both prowess and joy,
   but now both have departed,
   and I shall go to Him
   in whom all sinners find their end.

   I have been charming and gay,
   but Our Lord no longer wills it;
   and I can no longer bear the burden,
   so near do I approach the end.

   I have given up all I loved so much:
   chivalry and pride;
   and since it pleases God, I accept it all,
   that He may keep me by Him.

   I enjoin my friends, upon my death,
   all to come and do me great honour,
   since I have held joy and delight
   far and near, and in my abode.

   Thus I give up joy and delight,
   and squirrel and grey and sable furs.



   Pos de chantar m'es pres talenz,
   Farai un vers, don sui dolenz:
   Mais non serai obedienz
   En Peitau ni en Lemozi.

   Qu'era m'en irai en eisil:
   En gran paor, en gran peril,
   En guerra, laisserai mon fil,
   Faran li mal siei vezi.

   Lo departirs m'es aitan greus
   Del seignorage de Peitieus
   En garda lais Folcon d'Angieus
   Tota la terra e son cozi.

   Si Folcos d'Angieus no.l socor,
   E.l reis de cui ieu tenc m'onor,
   Guerrejar l'an tut li plusor,
   Felon Gascon et Angevi.

   Si ben non es savis ni pros,
   Cant ieu serai partitz de vos,
   Vias l'auran tornat en jos,
   Car lo veiran jov'e mesqui.

   Merce clam a mon conpaignon,
   S'anc li fi tort, qu'il m'o perdon,
   Et il prec en Jezu del tron
   En romans et en son lati.

   De proez'e de joi fui,
   Mais ara partem ambedui,
   Et ieu irai m'en a Cellui
   On tut peccador troban fi.

   Mout ai estat cuendes e gais,
   Mas Nostre Seigner no.l vol mais;
   Ar non puesc plus soffrir lo fais
   Tant soi aprochatz de la fi.

   Tot ai guerpit cant amar sueill:
   Cavalaria et orgueill
   E pos Dieu platz, tot o acueill,
   E El que.m reteigna ab Si.

   Totz mos amics prec a la mort,
   Qu.il vengan tuit e m'onren fort,
   Qu'eu ai agut joi e deport
   Loing e pres et e mon aizi.

   Aissi guerpisc joi e deport,
   E vair e gris e sembeli.

It's the only one of his songs for which the melody survives, and has been recorded beautifully by Gérard Zuchetto. Silverwhistle 16:10, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm not entirely convinced by the song that young William is necessarily a minor, rather than simply a young man whose political prowess and administrative skills are (rightly) doubted by his father, but if there is good reason to believe that Pos de Chantar was written around 1114 then I can hardly disagree. Michaelsanders 16:27, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
The political situation outlined in the song is of fear of being exiled, and of dying in exile, with his lands left in the boy's hands. If his son were an adult, however inexperienced (unless deemed entirely incapable for health reasons), William wouldn't have been talking about putting him under the guardianship of Foulques of Anjou. I think it's only been given a later date by some writers such as Meade because either they haven't read the whole song, and/or they've assumed that its valedictory tone must relate it to his final years. Silverwhistle 16:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
As for the lines themselves - laziness on my part, I'm afraid. I checked the lines to make sure that they weren't the same, but didn't give them enough scrutiny to notice what (now) appears rather obvious, i.e. the particular stretch where the meaning, if not exact phrasing, is (again, now) obviously the same. Thanks for the explanation. Michaelsanders 16:27, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Meade was using a rhyming translation, by the looks of it. Silverwhistle 16:40, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
It sounds rather better than, "I have given up all I loved so much:/chivalry and pride". I really don't like the translation you gave/in the article: it isn't particularly interesting (the French, for all that I can't understand it, is far better. But then, my tastes don't run far beyond rhyme).
As for the mention of Fulk, though - the mention of 'if Fulk doesn't aid him' and 'I leave him to watch over his cousin' sound as much like an alliance as a wardship. And the Fulk article doesn't help - it doesn't clearly explain when he was in France or Palestine.Michaelsanders 16:51, 23 November 2006 (UTC)