Talk:William IV of Aquitaine
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In what sense was this guy a Frank? Srnec 04:28, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
- He may be a descendant of Louis the Pious, and Franks appointed in general Franks to positions of meaning. Think of Boso of Provence and Bodegisel of Aquitaine. Of course he was related to Hugh Capet, the last Frankish king. johanthon 09:49, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
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- I don't doubt that there were Franks in his ancestry, but at what point do we cease to call all those who can trace their lineage to a Frank Franks? Is it arbitrary or is there a scholarly convention that is nearly universal? More importantly, I think, did William IV indentify himself as a Frank? Did anyone? I know that the Aquitainians did not usually identify themselves as Aquitainian, but that the Franks did. The latter did not consider them Franks unless they were Franks put into positions of power in Aquitaine. What makes Hugh the last Frankish king? William IV had a hereditary claim to his principality and was by no means merely a appointee of the Carolingian monarch. Srnec 17:01, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
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- There is a scholarly convention that makes Hugh Capet the last Frankish king AND the first French king. Somewhere at this point Western Francia became France. I'm just following this convention. Do you have any 'special' ideas on this subject? johanthon 18:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
- I have never picked up on such a convention as this. It is certainly true that most (but not all) authors avoid speaking of France until the advent of the Capetians, but the entity which Robert I and Robert II ruled, whether it's called Western Francia or France, was the same one. I think that William IV may have had Frankish blood in him, but he is not a Frank. I think the Aquitainian dukes had lost that identity by his time, not least because the word "Frank" would have meant "French" by that time, I believe. But I also happen to know that the Gascons called the Aqutiainians Franks (and, again, the Aquitainians never called themselves Aquitainians, that designator was the Franks'). What did a tenth-century native to Aquitaine call himself? Probably a Poitevin or Limousin or some such thing. Srnec 19:42, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
- There is a scholarly convention that makes Hugh Capet the last Frankish king AND the first French king. Somewhere at this point Western Francia became France. I'm just following this convention. Do you have any 'special' ideas on this subject? johanthon 18:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
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