Talk:William, German Crown Prince

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Refused to endorse the Nazis? What about this photo - he is wearing SA Uniform: http://forum.axishistory.com/files/kronprinz_sa_147.jpg

^^ Image is not visible because the forum doesn't permit hotlinking. Drutt 04:18, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 Name 2 A conversation copied from Talk about NC of monarchs, royals and other titled people 3 German Crown Prince or Crown Prince of Germany? 4 Ancestry Section 5 What's wrong with a redirect?

[edit] Name

He was never officially titled Germany's crownprince. He was Crown Prince of Prussia. Finlandais 14:18, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Why was he an Imperial Highness then? Charles 14:42, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

At a guess, because as the son of the Emperor he was still a Prince of the German Empire, just like his brothers. But he wasn't Crown Prince of the Empire because the Empire technically didn't have a succession order; the constitution just said that the Emperor was whoever happened to be King of Prussia. Binabik80 15:53, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

No, no other Prussian princes were entitled to the style of Imperial Highness. The Crown Prince was an Imperial Highness because he was titled German Crown Prince in addition to being Crown Prince of Prussia. Charles 16:46, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A conversation copied from Talk about NC of monarchs, royals and other titled people

Now, I forgot one thing: What of "Crown Prince Wilhelm of Germany"? Shouldn't his titled be affixed to the end of his forename, as with all other past crown princes (who never acceded?) and current crown princes? Depending on whether William or Wilhelm is more appropriate (I prefer William, of course, but common usage may say otherwise), he would be at William, German Crown Prince or Wilhelm, German Crown Prince. Charles 17:17, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

We should not join the crown prince into this equation. I see nothing serious against him being at "W, Crown Prince of Germany". How about first seeing the result of the emperor naming, and then, if any question remains regarding crown prince, return to that. Shilkanni 17:37, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I've taken the liberty to make this a subheading, so that it will remain and will stay placed under the "emperor discussion" for reference. Charles 17:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

how was he styled? "Crown Prince Wilhelm" or "The Crown Prince". that should determine with title to use.--Jiang 21:24, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

No, it wouldn't. The Crown Prince could have been called Crown Prince William, The Crown Prince or, outside Germany or in other German states, The German Crown Prince or German Crown Prince William. Whether or not his forename was included does not determine his title. Charles 23:04, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

why not? It is the difference between Charles, Prince of Wales and Prince William of Wales. The former is "The Prince of Wales" and never "Prince Charles of Wales" --Jiang 00:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Crown Prince is not a title that is shared amongst members of a family. There is only one Crown Prince for any given royal/imperial family. For instance, the children of a Crown Prince are not all crown princes and crown princesses in the same way that the children of a King and Queen are not all kings and queens. Charles 01:59, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

But frequently "Crown Prince" isn't an official title, unlike "Prince of Wales" or "King of Prussia". john k 19:43, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Prince of Wales is an actual title and as such belongs in proper usage, expecially for those princes of Wales who never lived to become king. Imladjov 16:42, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Was there ever a proclaimation as to the title of Crown Prince of Prussia with regard to the German Empire? I am certain that there was never such a person as a "Crown Prince of Germany". Charles 01:50, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

If he was not crown prince of Germany, that's clear enough reason to move him to crown prince of Prussia. Rhis page would be right place to continue the discussion about naming of precisely one article - here, all evidence about what he was called in English sources, and what he was proclaimed and what not, should be given. This individual's naming is obviously not a question of principle, but about individual facts. I took the liberty of copying the above writings from policy discussion arena to here. Shilkanni 19:19, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] German Crown Prince or Crown Prince of Germany?

I've always seen him called the "Crown Prince of Germany". The Almanach de Gotha calls him "rince impérial de Allemagne," not "Prince impérial allemand" (although it also says "Empereur d'Allemagne," rather than "Empereur allemand." At any rate, since "Crown Prince" is often an informal or only semi-formal title, I'd like to see some actual evidence that he was "Deutscher Kronprinz" rather than "Kronprinz von Deutschland". john k 18:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Although I would have thought it would be otherwise, Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels Fürstliche Häuser Band VIII (1968) page 128 refers to Wilhelm II's eldest son as "Friedrich Wilhelm Viktor August Ernst Kronprinz des Deutschen Reiches und v. Preussen" and L'Allemagne Dynastique Tome V Hohenzollern-Waldeck page 251 refers to him as "Guillaume, prince héritier (Kronprinz) de l'Empire Allemand et du Royaume de Prusse", Burke's Guide to the Royal Family, page 300 says "HI and RH Crown Prince Friedrich Wilhelm Viktor Ernst of the German Empire and of Prussia". Lethiere 20:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

So, technically it's "Crown Prince of the German Empire." Do we think a move to Wilhelm, Crown Prince of Germany, is appropriate? john k 23:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the move would be appropriate. Were Holy Roman Emperors not "of the Holy Roman Empire", for instance? Wilhelm may be called "Crown Prince of the German Empire" just as his father could very well be called "Emperor of the German Empire", but he certainly wasn't "Crown Prince of Germany". No one in the Prussian Royal Family was "of Germany". Wilhelm is best described as German Crown Prince for the same reasons that his father is German Emperor, not Emperor of Germany. Charles 03:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Except that he was called "Crown Prince of Germany". "German Emperor" is a direct translation of the German. "German Crown Prince" is not. john k 04:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Elizabeth II is sometimes called the Queen of England, but it isn't so. Charles 05:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

But "German Crown Prince" isn't right either. john k 06:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand this reasoning. All of the sources cited that agree Wilhelm was Crown Prince of the German Empire (not Crown Prince "of Germany") also describe his father as "German Emperor" and "King of Prussia", and his siblings as "Prince/ss of Prussia". I see no reason to presume that they got the father's title right, and the junior siblings' title right, but somehow got the eldest son's title wrong. Moreover, whereas Burke's may be only usually reliable when it comes to German titles, GHdA and L'Allemagne Dynastique, while not infallible, are both extremely careful with respect to German titles -- I do not know of any better sources, short of seeing the original titular decree for the German Empire's heir apparent. Does anyone have access to that document? Otherwise, what sources should be relied upon? Lethiere 07:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Most of the previous reasonings are irrelevant and all are imprecise. William II. was formally never ´the Emperor of Germany´, but only ´German Emperor´ (deutscher Kaiser). By analogy William junior, was only ´German Crown Prince´ and not ´Crown Prince of Germany´. These titles are much lower in esteem than those ending with ´of Germany´. I am working on a full scale biography of the Crown Prince and I can give more explanations if you wish. hjajonker@chello.nl

By analogy? That's not a very strong argument. Was he called "German Crown Prince"? As Lethiere notes, his title according to GHdA and L'Allemagne Dynastique, his title was "Crown Prince of the German Empire and of Prussia". We can't just say that his title was "German Crown Prince" because that's analogous to "German Emperor" - that's not how it works. john k 05:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

He was called "German Crown Prince" familiarly. He was known as Wilhelm Deutscher Kronprinz, as seen on postcards, but his full name was "Friedrich Wilhelm Victor August Ernst Kronprinz des Deutschen Reiches und Kronprinz von Preußen K.u.K.H.", or "His Imperial and Royal Highness, Wilhelm Crown Prince of the German Empire and Crown Prince of Prussia." This was the format used in the Handbuch über den Königlich Preußischen Hof und Staat, the annual official court and state handbook, and in the Rangliste der Königlich Preußischen Armee, the army rank list. I can scan and upload copies of the entries, if that will help develop a consensus, but both the formal title and the familiar form were commonly used. Regards, Airbornelawyer 06:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ancestry Section

Since titles are more often ten not used such King or Duke or Duchess or Princess or Landgravine are used, for consistancy's sake, use titles for all entries in the chart. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cladeal832 (talk • contribs) 19:01, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted the ancestry because there is no constructive use to make it "consistent" when the consistent naming convention is WP:NC(NT), which distinguishes sovereigns and consorts from other royals. The current titles are closer or equal to the article names or what they should be. Charles 03:13, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Also, as for the claim of initiating ancestry, see when the ancestry was first added to this article here. It was added to reflect naming conventions. Charles 03:15, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What's wrong with a redirect?

What's wrong with redirects? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.196.130 (talk) 04:25, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Talk:William I of Württemberg#What's wrong with redirects?. Charles 04:56, 15 November 2007 (UTC)