Wikipedia talk:WikiProject buses

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Contents 1 What bus routes are "important" enough for an article? 1.1 Sebwite's proposal 2 Importance 3 Naming 4 Disambiguation issues 5 Drivers 6 Style guides 7 Are we related? 8 Reasons for determining importance (as I discussed earlier) 9 Other Issues 9.1 Dates 10 Deletion discussion 11 Scope 12 Proposal for Local Bus Operator article guide 13 Deletion nomination 14 Requested move 15 Assessment? 16 List of bus routes violates WP:NOT ? 17 Categories 18 Trolleybuses Proposal

[edit] What bus routes are "important" enough for an article?

I feel that the first thing we should discuss is how "important" a bus route has to be for its own article. On one end are former streetcar lines, as well as articles like Grand Concourse buses, where the routes are old and have many sources. On the other end are obscure shuttles that operated for under a year. (See also this deletion discussion about a not-so-obscure route.) So where do we draw the line? My suggestion is that we go by how much we can write about the route, especially information that's not only minor routing changes. So the first, or even the second or third, bus rapid transit route in a city is probably fine, but a 20-year old suburban service is probably better covered on a list. --NE2 19:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sebwite's proposal

Here is what I feel should have its own page:

• Any current local bus line that operates on a regular basis (at least 5 days a week) year round. Most of these routes are used by thousands of people each day. Many of the older routes have a history dating back to the streetcars, and the newer ones still have a lot of useful information that if I were the information-seeker, I would want to know. An individual page allows a history to be provided, and for there to be links to the line's schedule and news articles about the route, among other topics.
• Any former bus line that existed for a significant amount of time. This way, an article can describe its origin, why that line no longer exists, what line currently provides its service. I have mentioned former routes that share the same numerical designation with current routes on the same page as those respective current routes, giving a brief description a few lines long, and providing the dates they operated, the areas they served, and the routes currently serving the same areas. If someone has a better idea on how to address this issue, they should share it.

What does NOT belong on its own page:

• Express commuter buses, unless enough information can be provided to make the line worthy of its own page. These lines usually provide a single-digit number of trips each day, are generally used by a relatively small number of people within a localized area, remain mostly unchanged, and have a minimal political impact. They, instead, can be placed in a chart on a single page.
• Temporary shuttles that served a purpose for a limited amount of time (i.e. the Light Rail shuttle that operated while the Light Rail was closed for the double-tracking project).
• Routes that operate for sports games or other special events only (i.e. express buses to Oriole Park at Camden Yards.
• Routes that provide service for public schools only (i.e. Route 49 (Baltimore)) and therefore operate on school days only.
• Failed experimental services (i.e. Downtown Area Shuttle (DASH)). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sebwite (talk • contribs) 22:38, 24 April 2007 (UTC).

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/No. 51 Line is the problem with that approach. Looking at its state before deletion, it looks like it could be compressed to a few paragraphs without losing anything important, and included in an article like List of newly-formed bus routes in Brooklyn. --NE2 22:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Importance

We should also figure out how to determine importance. Probably most routes as low, most operating companies as mid, and most general information as high. --NE2 20:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Naming

WikiProject buses should be capitalized and moved to WikiProject Buses. (capital B). most projects have it like this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.120.193.104 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Disambiguation issues

As Sebwite mentions above, often a route is not the first to have its number. One example is Route 33. This is a case where we need to disambiguate. From that guideline:

Two different methods of disambiguating are discussed here:

• disambiguation links — at the top of an article, a note that links the reader to articles with similar titles or concepts that the reader may seek instead of the current article.
• disambiguation pages — non-article pages that contain no content and refer users only to other Wikipedia pages.

I had to deal with a very similar issue when writing articles about state highways in Virginia. For instance, State Route 27 is the third route to have that number. The first one - State Route 27 (Virginia 1918-1940) - is now part of SR 168, so I redirected it there. The second - State Route 27 (Virginia 1940-1953) - is now a number of secondary routes, so I wrote a separate article. Note though that State Route 16 (Virginia 1918-1940), its old number, redirects there.

I suggest that we do something similar with bus routes. The complication is that not all routes will have their own articles. An anchor like "15 1950" in the table for a Route 15 that started in 1950 should be sufficient, and for numbers where the current route only has the table entry, we can add links there, probably in the history column. --NE2 22:59, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I have thought about various ways to address this issue. The decision that ultimately led me to place them on the same page is based on articles that I have seen about cars. For example, there have been different cars called Chevrolet Malibu over the years that all look different from one another, and have not all been made in consecutive years. Yet they are all on one page. Sebwite 00:36, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Drivers

IMO it is difficult to separate buses and drivers. Would you be interested in including drivers in this project? There are a handful of specific driver related articles (Bus Driver being the most obvious), but there are also bus driver trade unions (such as CAW Local 111) that could stand to fall within the care of this project as they often have input (or at least opinions about) routes and buses. Further areas of consideration would be bus operating companies (Coast Mountain Bus Company), manufacturers (New Flyer Industries), and related regulations(Category:Traffic law). Cheers.--Bookandcoffee 23:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with including any of those. --NE2 00:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Style guides

Please help add to Wikipedia:WikiProject buses/Bus route list guide. --NE2 15:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Are we related?

NO. Because we are not technically associated with your project, please remove WikiProject London Transport from your project template and place our project template there instead, thank you in advance and for your co-operation. Unisouth 14:41, 28 April 2007 (UTC) — WikiProject London Transport Founder.

The template is based on template:TrainsWikiProject, which does the same thing. --NE2 22:41, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

WP:LT is on that template because it was put on there when we were called WikiProject Underground as you may know, we have expanded to cover all aspects of London Transport. Therefore I have asked the removal of the 'tag' on that template. Unisouth 16:57, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reasons for determining importance (as I discussed earlier)

Here are my reasons why I believe there should be a page for ALL local bus lines, regardless of how large or small they are, as opposed to articles for just some, and information on a chart on a page about others in the same category:

• In a large city, such as Baltimore, most of the bus lines are a major part of life in the city. Some of them are used by more than 10,000 people each day. Even smaller ones (such as Route M-17 (Baltimore)) are well known by bus riders, area residents, and others, are mentioned every now and then in news stories, and are a stronghold to commerce in the region. They are the very thing that allow employees to reach their employers. Those who do not ride them regularly are aware of their existence. Having smaller bus routes listed only on a list of page is like having individual pages for the states of California and Texas, but having information about the states of Rhode Island and Delaware only on a list of U.S. states.
• Many of the older bus routes have their history rooted in the city's streetcars. While others have said that a suburban bus that has only been around for 20 years should be on a list of page, I feel this is like having a page devoted to U.S. presidents way in the past, such as George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Abraham Lincoln, but providing information about Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, and Bill Clinton only on a page listing U.S. presidents. Even the newer bus routes have a story behind them. Though they may not have started out as streetcars, they are tied in with the growth of the communities they serve.
• An individual page, regardless, allows information that cannot be placed on a chart to be provided, such as photos, external links to references or schedules, or internal links to communites and landmarks the line serves. Additionally, I have inserted sections on the existing Wikipedia pages for some streets, communities, and landmarks describing public transportation at those places. These can be extremely valuable to the information seeker.
• It is not uncommon to find a topic for which there is not just an article about the entire subject, but one for each unit within. For example, there is a page for Royal Caribbean, and also a page for each of the company's ships. Many subway systems have a page for each station, even smaller ones, describing the communities where they are located. And there are pages about even small neighborhoods within cities that are not well known to outsiders.

Sebwite 16:25, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any mentions of Route M-17 in the (admittedly incomplete) Google News Archive. That's a simple bus route that connects the Owings Mills Metro Subway Station to nearby offices, and should probably be covered there. Not every bus route is important enough for a separate article - and I say this as someone who's interested in them, not as someone on the "other side". Your comparison to states or presidents is flawed, since states and presidents are much more important. External links and references can be provided in a list, and are. Internal links can be added in the notes column. --NE2 22:47, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand, what do you think about an article titled list of M-Line bus routes in the Baltimore Metropolitan Area, formatted like list of newly-formed bus routes in Brooklyn? The ones that did evolve from streetcars can have a "main article" link, while the others can be covered there. --NE2 22:48, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I know it may sound weird, but for many reasons, I believe that it could cause problems to leave out just a few routes because they are smaller, say M-17 for example. It may cause some confusion in the information-seeker, something I am trying to prevent. Additionally, the articles I have written on Baltimore bus routes are not completed yet. I am still in the process of posting links to news articles on them, while trying to find a way to save the pages for Route 51 and Route M-9. As I have temporarily placed the information about M-9 on the page for M-2, I have thought of combining the two routes into a single page on Reisterstown Road buses. The article I created for Milford Mill Road, Slade Avenue, and Smith Avenue is on a single page, as these three roads are physically a single road. I have thought about the same for buses, particularly M-lines. Sebwite 00:32, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I did just look at the article on Brooklyn buses. Forming a page like this seems like a great idea. I actually think it would be an excellent idea to form a page listing and detailing all Maryland Transit Administration local buses routes, including Routes 1-98 and M-1 through M-17. There could also be similar pages for former Baltimore bus routes, Baltimore streetcars, and Maryland commuter bus routes (3-digits). Such a concept would be great as the Wikipedia standard for any city.

However, Rome was not built in one day, and it may take a while to build such a page (any help I would appreciate). I wish for it to include as much information as possible that is included in the individual pages I created, including the current description, history, details of changes, photos, and external links to schedules, plus other information that may be added in the future (I had planned eventually on adding charts detailing certain information, such as frequencies).

I do not wish to delete or redirect any of the current pages until the information is on a new page like this. It'll take me several days before I can get seriously busy. Sebwite 00:56, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I just started the article titled Baltimore Area (MTA) Bus Routes. This is just a start. It is far from being complete, and only includes Route 1 so far, but I plan to expand it in the coming weeks to include all other routes if others don't by then. Sebwite 01:13, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Routes with history, mostly former streetcar lines but also early bus routes, like the A Charles Street from 1915 (now part of Route 11), can definitely have their own articles. It's the more minor ones like 29 and 50 that don't make sense as separate articles. --NE2 01:27, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other Issues

[edit] Dates

It seems to me that every item needs a 'date of last confirnation' entry in the table - an extra column; just looking at the table for Kent, I can see several areas where the list is wrong - but no way to tell it is not current (Also worth pointing out that over 40% of Kent's routes are simply not mentioned - almost all of Arriva's West Kent Services, for example). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.105.163 (talk • contribs)

Using the access date in the references may be sufficient for this. I should however note that a discontinued route should not be removed, but marked as discontinued or added to a separate list. This is because Wikipedia is "timeless", and does not favor the present. --NE2 23:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion discussion

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Former Baltimore Area (MTA) Bus Routes --NE2 23:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scope

What exactly is the scope of this project? Is it focusing only on articles for individual routes? Will you be expanding to cover all Bus Operator articles and stubs? Would it be useful to take ownership of the relevant templates such as {{Infobox Bus transit}} and perhaps make a Bus Operator Article guide? Oh and a tagging spree might help get more members (not that I condone sprees you understand) 82.11.41.163 00:44, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the intent is to cover anything related to buses. It's basically WikiProject Trains but with buses. I think what's needed now is more input here on this talk page to determine what needs to be done and then actually do it. --NE2 01:49, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not particularly focused in this topic (just browisng some WikiProjects), but it is of interest to the project members I can contribute with a list of bus routes for Buenos Aires (Argentina) and Sydney (Australia) cities, and maybe some links to support that information. Don't have bilbliography but have lived in both sities and extensively used their bus networks as primary transportation. Regards, DPdH (talk) 03:14, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal for Local Bus Operator article guide

I've scrubbed together a basic article guide for Local Bus Operators at User:Foxhill/content to add/Local Bus Operator article guide. Please feel free to comment, pull it to pieces or mould it into something else. It's local-centric purely as National Bus services and coach services would require different layouts and sections for subsidiary's etc Foxhill 15:29, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion nomination

A4 Bath Road Park and Ride - I think I agree with its deletion, but someone might want to try to save it. --NE2 00:08, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Talk:Baltimore Streetcar Route 1 --NE2 00:33, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Assessment?

I note your project banner is set up for assessments, but you don't seem to have the categories and what-not set up. Do you want them? If yes, please drop a note on my user page and I'll at least set up the groundwork. John Carter 19:07, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of bus routes violates WP:NOT ?

Is there any basis for this conclusion? I ask because some people raised this point at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Egged bus lines. nadav (talk) 03:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Categories

I understand that the difference between Category:Bus transit and Category:Bus transport is essentially local city/county public transit vs. intercity bus travel, but I'm concerned that this distinction may not be sufficiently obvious to others. Would it be possible for one or both of these categories to be renamed to something a bit clearer and less easily confused with each other (e.g. "Local public transit")? Bearcat (talk) 18:01, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trolleybuses Proposal

Please see here.

Thanks,

BG7even 13:20, 1 June 2008 (UTC)