Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. Roads/Shields/Archive 1

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 A couple of things... 2 Where's the instruction manual? 3 Moving SVGs from Wikipedia to the Commons 4 The formal renaming proposal 4.1 Discussion 5 Indiana shields 6 Maine and Massachusetts 7 South Dakota Shields 8 Minnesota Shields - PNG to SVG 9 Shields are still disappearing 10 Requests process streamlined 11 Tennessee Shield problem 12 Moving images in the Commons 13 Florida county roads 14 CA Shields 15 U.S. Route 275 shield is there and not there 16 Utah Scenic Byways Shield 17 Old Time US Shields 18 New SC shields 19 Where are the County Road Banners? 20 Missing Shields for Nevada State Routes 21 Clark County 215 22 State Scenic Highway System (California) 23 Commons deletion of superseded images 24 Deletion of NV shield... 25 Interstate shield problem 26 Connecticut shield svg template 27 Old-style US shields 28 Resource 29 Old-style shields in general

A couple of things...

Here's a couple of things that have been on my mind since the beginning of the project:

• Now that the Interstate shields are named "I-X.svg", this makes the naming of the old state-specific shields ("Interstate 390 (New York).svg", for example) a bit tedious, lengthy and outdated. What I propose is that these shields be renamed to "I-X (State).svg" or "I-X (ST).svg" to match the new Interstate shields.
• County route shields are currently named in the format "(County) County Route X (State).svg" although a county route sign for Orange County, New York would (theoretically) be the same sign for Orange County, Florida. What I propose is that the State abbreviation be dropped from the names of all county route shields and that the shields are reorganized on the commons by county name and not by state. Thoughts? --TMF ^{Let's Go Mets - Stats} 03:58, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Well, Orange County, NY doesn't use the standard pentagon, but rather a diamond with a county outline inside... ;) —Scott5114↗ 18:27, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Oops, bad example. =) Oh well. In any case, I think the point I made is still clear, that in most cases the county shield is the same no matter what the state is. I knew someone was going to catch me on that example though... =) --TMF ^{Let's Go Mets - Stats} 18:37, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Where's the instruction manual?

I wouldn't mind helping out but I don't know how to create the shields. I had used SPUI to make shields in the past, but since he has parted ways with wikipedia, I am looking elsewhere for help. Can someone help me out on how to create them? What software to use? etc... I would prefer a free software if that is possible. Thanks. --Holderca1 19:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd be more than happy to impart my SVG knowledge to everyone here. I can write a quick how-to piece on the Designing sub-page if desired. --TMF ^{Let's Go Mets - Stats} 19:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Inkscape is very powerful for SVGs - and very free. I found that the be the best - Adobe Illustrator has many issues in it regarding SVGs. (besides not being free) --• master_son^{Lets talk} 19:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I tried using Inkscape, but couldn't figure out how to create the shields in it. A walkthough on Inkscape would be great, I couldn't figure out how to get the right font, what do you use as a starting point, the blank shield? --Holderca1 13:56, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I've posted some comments over at the Designing page. If you have more questions, feel free to ask them over there. --TMF ^{Let's Go Mets - Stats} 18:56, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Moving SVGs from Wikipedia to the Commons

Hey all. There's a number of shields currently on Wikipedia that would be better utilized on the Commons (ability to categorize them, etc.). Does anyone know of any policy regarding the migrating of images to the Commons and any procedure that needs to be carried out? For the record, the shields I'm referring to are shields for Colorado and the blank Washington shield. --TMF ^{Let's Go Mets - Stats} 18:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if it is policy or not, but I do believe it is prefered to place all images on the commons. That way the other wikiprojects can access the images. Just in case someone wanted to write an article in Japanese on State Road 85 in Florida. --Holderca1 13:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

The formal renaming proposal

As an extension of my comments a couple of sections up, here's my formal proposal for renaming state-specific Interstate shields and county route shields:

• Intra-state Interstate shields: To match the renaming of all neutered Interstate shields to "I-x.svg", intra-state Interstate shields should be renamed I-x (2-letter abbrev.).svg. Many of the state-specific shields need to be redone anyway (inaccurate borders, fonts, etc.), so moving the shields around won't be too much of a problem.
• County route shields: Because most counties across the United States use the standard pentagonal shield shape for county routes, there is no difference between shields in counties with the same name in different states (most of the time). For this reason, the current naming convention is flawed and the new convention should be County County Route x.svg.
  • There is an exception, however. Some counties do not use the standard blue pentagon and use other shield shapes/colors/etc. in their place. Shields in these cases should continue to use the current naming convention.

--TMF ^{Let's Go Mets - Stats} 03:00, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Since no one's said anything about this in the 15 days that this issue has been on the table, I'm going to assume that everyone's in agreement and I'll begin to implement the changes. I'll hold off on the county route shields for now though, as that's a system not looking for a fix. There's nothing wrong with the way they are now (plus there's too many that would need "fixing"). What does need fixing are the interstate shields, though, so I'll work on getting these changed to the new format. --TMF ^{Let's Go Mets - Stats} 03:01, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Indiana shields

I have been looking for the exact dimensions of the Indiana shields with no luck. I decided to take the images from their MUTCD (MUTCD Indiana Supplement Part 2D) to design new shields, but it appears that they use different fonts on the same shield, for example, it appears on the example of IN 114, the font for "INDIANA" is font D, while the numbers are in font C. I have created a few examples,

Any feedback would be appreciated. --Holderca1 22:28, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, made a few adjustments, I think these are pretty close to the real thing, did some looking around and it appears that INDOT is not very consistent on their shields. --Holderca1 03:09, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

From personal experience, Indiana Route shields look pretty much the same as Illinois Route shields, just the text "Illinois" changed to "Indiana". V60 04:06, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

See this page [1] to explain my confusion. There are some versions of the shield that are very similar to Illinois, but some that are not, other than being black and white and square. The latest version of images that I created were based on the gif images that is currently being used on the Indiana pages. To be honest, I think the reason that I can't find any specs is that there aren't any, it looks like the state leaves it up to the districts or however its divided to create the signs, as long as they are black and white, square and say "INDIANA" at the top is okay. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not sure though. --Holderca1 13:50, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Maine and Massachusetts

Do they both use the same exact shields? Just curious, they are using the Massachusetts shields on the Maine pages, just wanted to make sure they were just not confusing the MA state abbreviation for Maine. --Holderca1 15:43, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

South Dakota Shields

There is currently a problem with the South Dakota shields. Please refrain from using the 2D shields for now until the issue has been resolved. --• master_son^{Lets talk} 16:47, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The shields have been repaired and are now functioning normally. • master_son^{Lets talk} 20:23, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Minnesota Shields - PNG to SVG

Just wanted to check to see if anyone has started working on SVGs for the Minnesota highway shields which are currently in PNG. I assume that we will need to convert them (however possible) - If I'm wrong, or otherwise, please advise. Thank you • master_son^{Lets talk} 02:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think anyone's started working on SVGs for Minnesota. There are templates on the commons for MN SVGs, however, so if anyone wants to take on that task, feel free. I'd do it myself but I have a personal backlog about as bad as the assessment one. --TMF ^{Let's Go Mets - Stats} 02:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I put a note into the last one to make the rest of the PNGs (Sable232?) - and will take on the task otherwise • master_son^{Lets talk} 02:29, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I have no way to create SVG images. The only reason I could do the PNGs in the first place was because my drawing program had that capability. I can't use Inkscape at this time because it requires some kind of software that I don't have. --Sable232 22:55, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll start making the SVGs then. We'll have to convert the routebox to {{infobox road}} as well - All of the info on the old one can be retained during the conversion. Once I have a working copy I can send it by the wikiproject for clarification if needed • master_son^{Lets talk} 23:39, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Shields are still disappearing

Evidently, Bug ID 5463 is still around, because the US 92 shield(as well as plenty of others) is blank. ---- DanTD 17:14, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Image:US 92.svg purged and fixed. If you notice any more that appear blank either at certain resolutions or on their image page, post them here (as I can then purge them) or you can purge them yourself. See WP:PURGE for more details (though be advised that Commons images will need to be purged at the Commons, not locally). --TMF ^{Let's Go Mets - Stats} 19:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunatley, it's still disappearing, and so are US 98, FL 26, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 616, and 618. I posted some shields on the Florida State Road 50 page and had to upsize US 92 to get it to show up. There's a new exit list for Interstate 10 in Alabama which is missing US 98 shields, and a far as the infoboxes for Florida State Road 26, Florida State Road 54, Florida State Road 616, etcetera, well, see for yourself. ---- DanTD 23:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I say if you find shields that don't work after purging, request them at Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. Roads/Shields/Requests, make sure to state that they aren't working as the reason for recreation. --Holderca1 00:02, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Requests process streamlined

You may try it out on the request page, but click "Preview" instead of save. V60 ^{VTalk - VDemolitions} 00:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Tennessee Shield problem

I was wondering if anyone has run into this problem with other shields, but according to the standard drawing for Tennessee shields, D font is used, the problem arrises on the 3 digit shields and using the height from the standard drawing, many do not fit on the shield. The example they list Tennessee 155 just so happens to fit, and designing that specific shield in Inkscape yields a shield that looks just like that shield, but with any 3 digit shield that doesn't have a one in it, it doesn't fit. On the shield created by SPUI awhile back, Image:Tennessee 840.svg, he used C font to get it to fit. I suppose I could manually adjust the width to get it to fit properly, but wanted others input. --Holderca1 15:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I went ahead and finished all the shields that were requested, will get them uploaded this afternoon. I just manually adjusted the width without adjusting the height to fit them in. If they look odd, then I will work on it, if anyone has a 3-digit picture of a real shield, that would also be helpful. --Holderca1 15:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Alright, everyone can disregard this, looking into a bit deeper, I pulled up the TN county maps and all the shields in question are of secondary state routes and use a different shield. I will correct the I-26 article when I complete and upload the shields. --Holderca1 17:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I thought I had figured it out, but some 3-digit routes don't fit on the secondary shields either. So I decided to go digging for photos of real life shields to solve the problem, now I am just more confused. Secondary Route 57 shield in C font, Primary Route 57 shield in D font, Primary Route 385 shield in C font, Primary Route 840 shield in D font, so I will just go with what works. --Holderca1 19:34, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

From what I've seen in the field, TN uses both C and D fonts on their signs. TN 54 is a prime example, in the field it has primary shields in both C and D fonts and older secondary shields in C...I seen this on my last run between Jackson and Covington, I can get pictures if you like, and someone please critique the shields that I've created, they are secondary TN 5, TN 78, and TN 181. Let me know if I goofed anywhere or if I could improve on anything Pepper6181 04:04, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Moving images in the Commons

Does anyone know how to move an image or change its name in the commons? --Holderca1 18:39, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Like Wikipedia, there is no "move" link for images. You need to first re-upload the image another the new name, then tag the old one for speedy deletion saying that it has been renamed. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 20:23, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

iirc, you tag the old image with {{duplicate|Image:IMAGENAME.jpg}} Zzyzx11 (Talk) 20:26, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Florida county roads

Florida has a specific design for their county roads that is different than what is used nationally, see here: http://www.dot.state.fl.us/rddesign/rd/RTDS/17355s1-12of12.pdf, I had to redo the shields that I initially uploaded. It allows the use of D font for every shield. So just in case you need to make them in the future, make sure to follow this guide. --Holderca1 13:30, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

CA Shields

Is it just my browser, or is MediaWiki having a problem with the rendering of many of the CA shields? Compare:

Filename	25x20px	88x70px	100px	150px
Image:California 1.svg
Image:California 19.svg
Image:California 55.svg
Image:California 210.svg

If so, someone has to recreate these images again (or at least find out why there are errors when the MediaWiki software tries to convert the SVG code into these thumbnails). Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 20:37, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I downloaded the faulty shields above, opened them and resaved them in Inkscape, and reuploaded them - they should work fine now. Not sure why, but resaving and reuploading seems to be the only way to permanently fix this pesky bug. --TMF ^{Let's Go Mets - Stats} 04:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

U.S. Route 275 shield is there and not there

In the article I've expanded quite a bit, the US 275 shield does not show in the infobox, but it does show in the exit list further down the page. And it appears on other pages. Is there anything to be done about that? DandyDan2007 10:15, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Utah Scenic Byways Shield

Howdy, Finally most of the Highways declared Scenic Byways have at least stub articles. I would like to add a category and list page for the articles. Utah does sign these highways with a unique shield. Examples at: http://www.utah.com/art/misc/scenic_byway.jpg (used on page http://www.utah.com/byways/) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ut128.JPG (faintly visible). Can the graphic rendition at Utah.com (Utah Travel Council, state government agency) be used by wikipedia? Must we re-create our own? Or is it not legal to use even a re-created copy of the shield? Please advise? Also if we must re-create our own, any suggestions on who can help? I'm not a graphics artist and can't draw a straight line with a mouse and CAD software =-) Davemeistermoab 18:38, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Unless the shield is in the state's MUTCD supplement, I don't think it would be OK to use. It appears that one logo is used for all byways; this could be used in an article about the system of scenic byways under fair use. --NE2 23:23, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Old Time US Shields

Hi, a little new to doing this kind of stuff, but known about wikipedia for a while. Anyway, I've made some great looking old time US shields. However, I made them from taking images from other websites and I'm afraid they might not be valid. But I would be happy to share a sample with you guys, but I'm a little confused on what format I should use(EX: svg,jpeg?). Assistance would be greatly appreciated. (Guess you can call me a newbie? :) ) So, if you're interested I would be happy to share them with you. Of course I need assistance. Right now I'm somewhat, or very limited on what states I can do on the US highway shields because I lack a lot of letters of the alphabet(still searching). Thanks! -Mm555 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mm555 (talk • contribs) 04:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

SVG is the preferred format in all cases. Perhaps you could make some derived from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:US_66_%28AZ_Old%29.svg ...that's the only old shield we have at the present time. A font containing all digits and letters used on the old signs is available at [2]. Make sure you upload to Commons, which allows for better categorization and usage by other projects. —Scott5114↗ 22:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll see if I can find some time to upload them(Hopefully soon). The ones I made actually look a little different than the example you showed me. So I'll see if I can get them up sometime this week. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mm555 (talk • contribs) 03:44, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

By the way, if you type ~~~~ after your comment, it'll expand to a signature so the bot doesn't have to go back and sign it for you :) —Scott5114↗ 17:51, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Here are the samples (They're kind of distorted, but the actual ones will be cleaned up and polished)[3]. I also found some budmo, but those are even more limited.Mm555 05:45, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

New SC shields

South Carolina has come out with a new design: http://www.scdot-transfer.org/SCDOTPhotos/SignSC215NewDesign.jpg Anyone want to make some new shields? —Scott5114↗ 22:43, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Where are the County Road Banners?

I haven't been able to find any banners for County Route Shields. I've been wanting to use them for things like "OLD Marion County Road 441," "TRUCK Pasco County Road 587," "BUSINESS Pinellas County Road 611," and things like that. ---- DanTD 14:35, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

There's a truck in commons:Category:Auxiliary Plates. I don't see business or old though. --NE2 19:34, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Maybe I should request them. ---- DanTD 14:55, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Missing Shields for Nevada State Routes

Howdy, Could I get some help for missing nevada shields? Specifically for the article I'm working on Nevada State Route 722? I've downloaded inkscape, and recall reading somewhere on fonts I need to install. But I can't find those help pages now. Davemeistermoab 17:43, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. Roads/Shields/Design should help. --TMF ^{Let's Go Mets - Stats} 17:49, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Clark County 215

Can someone make a shield for Clark County 215 (future Interstate 215 (Nevada))? The shield is certainly unique, and it's possible that it cannot be used on Commons. --Geopgeop (T) 12:28, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

It's been more than two weeks now... any response? --Geopgeop (T) 23:13, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I will attempt this weekend to make it. No, it probably can't be used on the Commons, and thus the only place we could use it would be the infobox next to the I-215 shield. What I'll do is I'll make a regular Clark County 215 shield that can optionally be used in places like the exit list and junction section of the infobox (and other infoboxes). Then we at least have something. Cheers :) --MPD ^{T / C} 00:57, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

State Scenic Highway System (California)

The current image is for county highways only; the specifications for the sign for state highways are at [4]. (The county sign is at [5] if anyone feels like fixing it; it doesn't use the correct pentagon.) Thank you. --NE2 22:56, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Image:California Scenic State.svg - Close as I could get, anyone want to adjust, feel free  — master son^{T - C} 00:35, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - it's not perfect, but it's good enough for me. --NE2 01:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Commons deletion of superseded images

This is a proposal to weaken the superseded images policy at commons, which is having effects at Wikipedia and USRD such as user confusion about which image to use. --Rschen7754 (T C) 04:32, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Deletion of NV shield...

Howdy, This has been replaced on commons. But the wikipedia bot that checks for duplicate images on commons has flagged the image as do not delete, as the image on commons is not identical (a different font was used on the image on commons). Can an admin or more experienced user help out? Davemeistermoab (talk) 23:55, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I've sent it to WP:IFD. --Rschen7754 (T C) 01:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Interstate shield problem

I think our three-digit Interstate shields are off. Yeah, I know that no state uses it, but we follow the SHS guidelines, and I'm fairly sure they say to use Series E for the text in the shield's crown, rather than Series D, like our current shields use. I know it used to be Series E, but this was apparently changed (by accident?) when they were moved to the I-x.svg convention. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 21:44, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Connecticut shield svg template

I've created a template for an SVG version of the Connecticut state highway shield. Any thoughts or constructive criticism on this? If there's anything you dislike about it, let me know; I'll change it to the best of my ability.

Thanks in advance! —Mr. Matté (^Talk/_Contrib) 22:20, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

The border width looks good (1/16 width of the shield). The numeral height seems a bit on the large side. My recollection is that it has a height that is exactly one-half of the shield height. Based on crude measurements of the rendered png file, it looks like it's 10% too tall and the spacing between the edge of the top border and the top of the numeral is somewhat smaller than the spacing between the edge of the bottom border and the bottom of the numeral. --Polaron | Talk 02:00, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Just for the record, and I don't know if you checked this out, but the "X" in this example isn't converted to path; doing that would get the actual height (and correct font). —Mr. Matté (^Talk/_Contrib) 02:24, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, if that is the case, all is good then. I don't have an SVG editor so only looked at the rendered PNG file. Thanks for making the template. --Polaron | Talk 02:28, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Just so everyone's aware, all of Connecticut's major highway's shields have been uploaded as .svg's (see here) —Mr. Matté (^Talk/_Contrib) 21:35, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Old-style US shields

I'm about to start work on a batch of old-style US shields for Washington, and I figured I'd point out that right now there's no consistent naming convention or categorization for these types of shields on Commons. Might be something we want to work out ASAP... -- Kéiryn ^talk 17:51, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I have seen this format: Image:US 366 Cutout (TX).svg, I don't know if I have a preference though. --Holderca1 ^talk 18:03, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Would Image:Old US 77 (OK).svg work? It'd be a bit shorter....—Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 18:18, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I think -- were I to have a preference -- it would be for Image:Old US 77 (OK).svg. (I've seen both of the above "conventions", as well as at least one other.) What about categorization? Currently they're kind of strewn all over the place -- one's in the main US shield category, Michigan has a bunch in with their old state highway shields, Washington has a couple with their current state highway shields even though they have a separate category for their old ones...

I was thinking create a new subcat of the US shield category and put 'em there, and double-cat them in the former state highway categories where they exist, but not in current state highway shield categories? -- Kéiryn ^talk 03:06, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Why not include the year of the standard, like US 66 (1926) or US 77 (OK 1955)? --NE2 03:22, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Heh, cuz I don't have a clue what standard I'm using? (Although it's probably 1926.) -- Kéiryn ^talk 03:24, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[6] has some scans of "Manual and Specifications for the Manufacture, Display, and Erection of U. S. Standard Road Markers and Signs" (AASHO, January 1927), including the U.S. Highway marker. --NE2 04:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the year of the standard is largely unnecessary because the goal here isn't to create every type of shield that's ever existed. Basically I was just thinking one set of old shields to complement the sets of old state highway shields that some states use for decommissioned (!) highways. -- Kéiryn ^talk 16:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Resource

I just made a simple gallery of Primary State Highway and Secondary State Highway shields from Washington predating from the 1970's.

The link is right below:

User:ComputerGuy890100/PSH Shields

I hope this is a help as a resource! — ComputerGuy890100^{Talk to me}_{What I've done to help Wikipedia} 20:21, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Old-style shields in general

Just a quick question, does this subproject give any guideline for the use old-style shields? I ask this because User:Freewayguy has been very vocal about his opposition to the Roads in Maryland Project's use of state-name Interstate shields, which are no longer officially in use by Maryland. He has even gone so far as to tag them for speedy deletion. We've been using them simply as an example of the older style; our project's shield guideline has never recommended that they be used in routeboxes etc. If there isn't a guideline here, it would probably be a good idea to write one that says where they can be used so as to avoid any further confusion.-Jeff ^(talk) 00:24, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe that this subproject/task force has any guidelines for anything, whether it be shield usage, placement, etc. Currently, any guidelines that were developed by the USRD task forces (which is what the term for this appears to be based on the USRD navbox) are now part of the USRD overall standards page, so discussion on this should probably be shifted there. (On a personal note, I find it incredibly sad that edit wars and POINTy deletion taggings have arisen from such a minor topic as this.) – TMF 01:25, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, I completely forgot that all the task forces' standards pages were merged. I'll go ahead and move this discussion there. I too am concerned about Freewayguy's behavior. Although the speedy taggings apparently happened a while ago, I just found out about them today, which is what prompted me to bring this to USRD.-Jeff ^(talk) 02:58, 14 April 2008 (UTC)