Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Systems

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Welcome at this talk pages of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems. This pages is open for everybody to respond. Feel free to do so. For other questions ask Mdd. This talk page will have an active editing. All talk-items are open for debate. Closed items will be stored as sone as possible in the archive:


Contents

[edit] Moving all images to commons

I started an attempt to move all (GFDL) images in the fields of the systems sciences to commons. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 23:33, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Overview of the field of Systems science

I added the following overview of systems science to the List of academic disciplines today. -- Mdd (talk) 12:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Systems science (version 0 (24.02.08))

[edit] Further comments

If any one have any more suggestions please let me know. -- Mdd (talk) 12:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 1: A separate Dynamical systems theory section

I think the overview (version 0) should be update with a separate Dynamical systems theory section. Now there are three options here:

A. A section called Dynamical systems theory
B. A section called Mathematical system theory.

The problem here is that Mathematical system theory has no article of its own at the moment.

C. A section named Dynamical systems

-- (Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 22:10, 11 May 2008 (UTC))

[edit] 2: Complexity theory removed

Complexity theory could and or should be removed because I it is not a separate field. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 19:54, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 3: Systems dynamics located under Operations research

Systems dynamics and Social dynamics can be located under Operations research -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 22:44, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 4: (Two) more fields

Two more fields are suggested:

  • Information systems theory around the information systems article... or information systems science or computer systems theory..!?
  • Social systems theory around systems theory in the social scieces.

The problem here is, that there aren't any overview articles here (yet). -- 20:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Further Assessment of Systems science articles

Jiuguang Wang has recently brought a lot of articles in the field of control theory under the scope of this WikiProject, by tagging them with the {{WikiProject Systems}} tag on the articles talkpage. In response I assessed these about 100 articles and made some wikification here and there.

Now I think some further assessment of Systems science articles is possible of:

  1. All articles within the different fields of systems science.
  2. All systems discribed in Wikipedia.

The first option means a few hunderd articles, the second a few thousand. I will begin with the first option and will leave the second option for the moment. -- Mdd (talk) 13:08, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I started tagging all (related) articles in the:
And added about 260 extra articles. -- Mdd (talk) 21:51, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I continued with all (related) articles in the:
-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 21:20, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Systems Reassessment

The update of the WikiProject Systems article template will require and reassessment of all WikiProject Systems articles.

This reassessment can be related to the new "Overview of the field of Systems science".

  • All fields mentioned here can be assessed as top-importance
  • All subfields mentioned can be assessed as high-importance

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 20:06, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Further assessment and reassessment

I started some reassessment here and there to check if the new assessment system works. More structured assessment have been done in the following items:

I created a new

And I started assessing Systems lists from here. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 12:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Category:List-Class Systems articles

I assessed all (known to me) lists in the field of systems and systems science using the Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/List of systems#Listings of specific systems.

As a result the Category:List-Class Systems articles now lists about 63 pages.

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 15:26, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Updating the {{WikiProject Systems}} to a {{sys rating}} with fields

WikiProject Systems This article is within the scope of WikiProject Systems, which collaborates on articles about the idea of systems. If you would like to help, you can edit this article or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the assessment scale. [FAQ]
??? This article has not yet received an importance rating within Systems.

Please rate this article, and then leave comments here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.

The current WikiProject Systems Assessment doens't make a difference in fields. Now I think this assessment can be updated with an extra "Field dimension", similair as the assessment in the WikiProject Mathematics, see here.

The fields that could be divided are:

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 11:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A start

This change will require an update of the whole WikiProject assessment structure. As a start a created the Template:WP SYS 1.0 from the Template:WP MATH 1.0 as example.


This template gives a first impression of all the new things to be done. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 12:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I continued with the mayor page:
And with some other pages:
And a few dozend others.
There are maybe still a few dozend articles to go here.
-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 15:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A new {{tl:Sys rating}} template

I also started developing a new {{tl:Sys rating}} template -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 13:52, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Systems
Systems science Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Systems, which collaborates on articles related to Systems science.
Systems rating: Quality  unassessed. importance unassessed. Field unassessed.
Please update this rating as the article progresses, or if the rating is inaccurate. Please also add comments to suggest improvements to the article.

Further comments:

Still serious attention is needed in:

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 15:19, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Structure

Today I tryed to complete the necessary Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Structure. The things still missing at the moment are:

Additional ratings fields
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Theorems and conjectures
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/History
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Mathematicians
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Vital articles

Each of these pages, except for the Mathematicians page, has /Top, /High, /Mid, /Low and /Unassessed subpages which list the articles in that field with the given importance (or priority) rating.

Articles by quality pages
General templates used by the project
  • Template:Systems scientist data
Technical project templates
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Mathematician row format

Now I think these pages are not really necessary to get the thing running. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 22:28, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Further Assessment of the fields of Systems science

Around 15 May an initiative has started to reassess and further assess all articles in the ten different fields of systems science.

[edit] The field of chaos theory

I further assessed and reassessed (as far a I can se now) all articles in the field of chaos theory. I hereby assessed the folowing 5 categories:

I didn't assess the folowing 3/4 categories, for different reasons:

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 21:55, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

In total
  • 195 articles have been tagged
-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 14:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The field of cybernetics

I reassessed most articles in the

Multiple articles in the category cybernetics are also categorised in the systems theory and control theory categories. Of those articles I will assessed the more general articles in thw field of systems theory, and the more technical and mathematical articles in field of control theory.

Now I am not so sure about the other subcategories.

I don't think these categories could be seen as part of the field of cybernetics.

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 18:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

At the moment:
  • In total some 150 articles have been tagged.
  • Over one thousand articles in the other categories.
-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 14:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The field of control theory

I will continu with the field of control theory, with:

In this field of control theory there is a split the more mathematical control theory and the more practical control engineering. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 13:20, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

At the moment in total:
  • Some 286 articles in the field of control theory have been tagged.
  • The category filter theory offers an other 116 articles
  • The category automation offers some 110 and more articles.
The question here is how far I should go. Now I have to take into consideration that the Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team wants to tag all articles. Since the category filter theory and category automation are in no other WikiProject three things can be done.
  1. Bring them (partly) under the WikiProject Systems
  2. Bring them (partly) under an other WikiProject, for example WikiProject Robotics
  3. Start a new WikiProject Automation.
-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 13:47, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The field of dynamical systems

The structure of the field

This structure shows:

  • The interdiscplinairy scope of dynamical systems between systems sciences and natural sciences
  • About 6 categories to assess: Dynamical systems, Bifurcation theory, Ergodic theory, Limit sets, Non-linear systems, Random dynamical systems & Stability theory
  • In total about 248 articles to assess in the field of dynamical systems.

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 21:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

First part done here -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 22:36, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Second part done -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 22:09, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The field of operations research

The structure of the field, seen from the category:operations research:

Now in total, if we skipp the

Then in total about 770 articles remain here.

The question off cause is where to draw the line. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 19:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Overall

In total in the fields:

In total about 879 articles now reassessed -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 14:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Two or more fields

I wonder if there should be two or even more fields of systems science defined here:

A problem here is, that there aren't any overview articles here (yet).

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 19:24, 2 June 2008 (UTC) - 17:39, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Neural network related articles in WikiProject Systems

The beginning here is copied from the User talk:Mdd page

Hi Marcel - I was reading artificial neural network and I noticed that none of the neural network related articles belong in a WikiProject - do you think it is appropriate to add them to WikiProject Systems? They would fall into intelligent control, naturally, but a lot of the topics under neural networks isn't particularly control-related (like the mathematics based optimization articles). --Jiuguang Wang (talk) 00:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. With the further assessment of WikiProject Systems I recently ran into similair cases, for example the Category:Artificial intelligence and the Category:Ergonomics. Now you are talking about the articles in the Category:Neural networks, which I allready mentioned above as a category in the field of cybernetics. Now first some a few general things:
There is a general problem here where to draw the line or boundaries of the WikiProject Systems, the field of Systems science and all particulair fields of systems science, like control theory and cybernetics. Now there are a few guidelines:
  • All assessment is part of the Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment, and the Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team wants to assess all articles in Wikipedia.
  • The WikiProject Systems have to consider all related articles and categories.
  • The most effective way is to consider the categories one at the time, instead of articles.
  • When categories are not assessed yet, there are three things that can be done:
  1. Bring them (partly) under the WikiProject Systems
  2. Bring them (partly) under an other related WikiProject.
  3. Initiated a WikiProject for that particulair field.
Now the third option is for the long run. What we can do is look at the related categories in the field of control theory, because you are (here) the expert in that field.
Now in the field of control theory there are a few categories to consider:
Now you have asked me if the artificial neural network related articles should be assessed to the WikiProject Systems? My answer is that we should consider the whole category. In return I want to ask you, if you think the above 5 categories should be assessed in the field of control theory of the WikiProject Systems or maybe in some other WikiProjects? -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 12:41, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
P.S. You must have noticed I reassessed a lot of articles in the field of control theory. As a result I raised the importance of almost all articles with one step, because of the introduction of the field of control theory!?
I'm rather conflicted at the moment. I definitely think artificial intelligence and computational intelligence should have a separate WikiProject (which include Category:Neural networks)...but that's a more long time goal, as you said. I'd have to think about the remaining four categories. --Jiuguang Wang (talk) 13:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Good thinking. As a start we can make artificial intelligence a separate field within the Wikiproject Systems. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 14:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Drawings?

Curious to see if any drawings or maps have been made to represent the unassessed systems dimensionsDebMacP (talk) 13:02, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Spotlight

Spotlight
An article covered by this WikiProject, Artificial sunlight, is currently under the Spotlight. If you wish to help, please join the editors in #wikipedia-spotlight on the freenode IRC network where the project is coordinated. (See the IRC tutorial for help with IRC)

...... Dendodge .. TalkHelp 12:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)