Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Germany/Conventions

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[edit] Introduction

Before beginning a major revision of the Germany part of Wikipedia, we need a style guide. I have not been able to find any other summary in one place of naming rules for Germany. What I have offered here is a summary of modern practice by English speaking journalists and authors. Tacitus 15:01, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I've expanded the page, and hope I am not going too fast, but the points made below will surely be considered as we revise. The suggestion is that we clearly differentiate between historic and contemporary usages. Tacitus 12:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Placenames

A couple of points. Firstly, "Brunswick" is used at least as often in English as "Hanover" with one "n", and usually in the same contexts - largely historical ones. I would say that most usually, references to the modern cities are "Braunschweig" or "Hannover," but that references to the historical Guelf rulers are almost always "Brunswick" and "Hanover." If "Hanover" is a common english form, it seems to me that "Brunswick" pretty clearly is as well. There are other cities which, in some contexts, at least, are referred to by anglicized names. I've never heard of the Council of Konstanz, for instance, but I don't think there's any clear dominant usage between Konstanz and Constance overall. Similarly, Aachen is, in certain historical contexts, still referred to as "Aix-la-Chapelle," notably in reference to the treaty signed there in 1748, and to the Congress of the Powers held there in 1818. Other formerly used Francizations/Anglicizations like "Mayence," "Ratisbon," "Treves," "Cassel," and so forth seem clearly obsolete. I can't think of any other cities that are normally anglicized, though. I will add that "Mecklenburg-Vorpommern" appears to me to be more common than the translated name. john k 00:58, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll add that I'd never heard of the "Ore Mountains" before reading this proposal. I've always just heard them called the Erzgebirge. john k 04:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

As an English-speaker living in Germany, my perceptions are perhaps somewhat biased, but I would always spell "Hanover" with one "n" when writing in English (and do in my capacity as a professional translator), while "Brunswick" sounds to me as obsolete as "Mayence" or "Aix-la-Chapelle" (except as the name of a brand of bowling ball). I'd never heard of the Erzgebirge called the "Ore Mountains" either; it's probably due to Wikipedia's to maintain an NPOV with respect to the German vs. the Czech name. —Angr 14:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
"The Duke of Braunschweig was mortally wounded at the Battle of Auerstadt"? "Ernst August became the last Duke of Braunschweig in 1913"? "The Duchy of Braunschweig was a state in the German Empire"? I've never heard any of these things said in English. I've also never heard reference to the Treaty of Aachen of 1748 or the Congress of Aachen of 1818. Mayence is, indeed, no longer used, but Aix-la-Chapelle and Brunswick are both used in certain contexts. Brunswick is still the standard English name of the former state, and in historical discussions one tends to see the city called that as well, if only to avoid confusion. Aix-la-Chapelle is only used in reference to certain events, rather than in references to the city itself, but it is still standard in those particular usages - the 1668 and 1748 treaties, and the 1818 congress in particular. And we don't have to use some made up equivalent simply because two alternate names are used, if one is used in English and the other is not. Krušné hory is not a term that's ever found in English, so I don't see why its existence means that we can't use the German "Erzgebirge". john k 15:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not talking about historical usage, I'm talking about modern usage. I wouldn't say "All France is divided into three parts" either. —Angr 15:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Different issue. That's an issue of a new name, this is an issue of whether we translate a name. And "Brunswick" is still used for the state much more recently than "Gaul" - the state of Brunswick existed until 60 years ago. john k 23:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I first heard of "Ore Mountains" only four or five years ago too. Even though it does appears a neologism, it may help keep the peace.Tacitus 12:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Upper Palatinate for the contemporary administrative region of Oberpfalz does seem to be a case of translation overkill. Would it not be more consistent with Wikipedia practice elsewhere to head the relevant history articles "Upper Palatinate" but just use the German for the grey bureaucrats of today? In the 21st century, the two Palatinates have got nothing to do with one another.Tacitus 12:27, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

You're probably right. When it comes to the names for current places, I always want to follow my instinct as an English speaker in Germany. I can't imagine saying to someone "I'm going on vacation to the Upper Palatinate"; I'd always say "I'm going on vacation to the Oberpfalz". I don't know how verifiable that is though. —Angr 12:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
This should not be a limiting list; there are others which John didn't happen to think of; Meissen, for example. If we are going to give authority to this page, then Frankfurt an der Oder should be moved back to its traditional designation from Frankfurt (Oder), which is the recent German name, not received in English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:08, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm not happy about all this Palatinate stuff. The modern states of Germany have perfectly good names in the vernacular. Soccer fans have no trouble pronouncing FC Bayern. I'm in favour of at least allowing use of the modern German names for the states; if not going so far as banning the English names. They all link to each other anyway.
I should point out though that Germans and their civil servants (especially in the tourist information business!) are enthusiastic about translating placenames into English where ever they can.Nankai 22:17, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
and another thing... we are here to facilitate communication, it should all be judged on the ability to convey information to the reader: "Ernst August became the last Duke of Braunschweig" and "I'm going on vacation to the Upper Palatinate" can both clearly be ridiculed as impenetrable. Nankai 22:24, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Counties

On the Genealogy Wikia, people are writing about places their ancestors lived in. I like to match "en" WP names as closely as possible. This evening I looked up a link to WP, which redirected to County of Bentheim. On the face of it, that style of name is inconsistent with other countries' WP county names such as Los Angeles County.

I know that a significant difference is that the English-speaking ones were never ruled by Counts; but that's a weak reason for difference. An equally valid reason for making them match would be that the U.S. and other modern counties are generally officially called "County of ....", but WP reverses that for them so why not for Bentheim?

No specific standard seen on the couple of pages I've looked at here. Can someone point me to a WP "recommendation" page that I can link to, so that we more easily maintain harmony with "en" WP as far as possible for former placenames (without having to look up each one individually)? Robin Patterson 13:10, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

As you said, it's a different type of county. The County of Bentheim is a county as in "territory ruled by a Count". The modern German "Kreis", the equivalent of US "county", is translated as "district" following European Union suggestions, see Wikipedia:German-English translation requests/Translation guide. County of Mark is consistent with Duchy of Cleves, Archbishopric of Trier, and Lordship of Myllendonk: it seems to be common to use the "type of place" construction. For these places ruled by counts, searching Google Books and Google Scholar yields far more results of "County of place" than for "Place County", so ours seem to be the preferred translations. Kusma (talk) 13:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
That will do me, thanks. Robin Patterson 13:57, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Universities

A contributor to the Germany Project page argued for native German names for universities. That does not seem to represent mainstream opinion. In general, Italian, Chinese and other Wikipedians do not seem to force foreign-language university titles on readers. I've suggested here how the headwords for universities can be presented in a way acceptable to the Wikipedia community internationally. As far as I can see, the majority of Wikipedia university entries employ simple descriptive headwords of the form "University of [[Placename]]", which is to say, regardless of what it calls itself, it is "the university" that is situated at that place. Further adornment needs only be prefixed if a town has multiple universities. The "of" form has the advantage of allowing for such a prefix, e.g. Technical University of Wagga-Wagga. In text, Wikipedia articles also naturally take this form, "In 1951, he switched to the University of Heidelberg where he majored in ..." (Kohl biography). Tacitus 22:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

It would make life a lot easier. Agathoclea 23:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Abbreviations

I suggest avoiding "GDR", "BRD" & "FRG", as I doubt that many English speakers outside the German speaking countries will know what they mean - and I suspect that not many more will know what "DDR" means. "East & West Germany", on the other hand, will be understood by almost all those who know what the cold war was. --87.187.77.229 16:58, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

For most articles in Wikipedia I would agree: the informal names are clear and well known. However "GDR" and "FRG" would be appropriate in articles about those pre-1990 political entities per se.Tacitus 19:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalization in film titles

In film titles, the foreign version often becomes the title of the article, so we are having a discussion in Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (films)#Capitalization in titles, trying to establish what is correct for each language. It is clear the German nouns are capitalized, but how do we we go about the non-noun words? We would appreciate if you could drop us a line about it. Hoverfish Talk 20:57, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

English titles tend to capitalize most words. Exceptions could be things like of but it should be easy enaugh to find out how any particular film is spelt by going on imdb or similar. Agathoclea 18:17, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Format for German places

Since there is now a concentrated effort at Wikipedia:WikiProject Germany/Cities to bring articles on municipalities/towns/cities up to standard, perhaps it is time to come up with some sort of format for these articles. At the moment, the focus is on making sure that all articles actually exist. The next step is to add content. We probably don't need something as detailed as de:Wikipedia:Formatvorlage Stadt but some clear guidelines would help. I've started up a page at here, giving what I believe to be the necessary minimum requirements for such articles. Any comments and help with setting this up would be appreciated. - 52 Pickup 15:28, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Existing guidelines

Large parts of this should be considered for inclusion on Wikipedia:Naming conventions (settlements). There is also a discussion on the possibility of a world-wide convention on its talk-page. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:59, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed standard practice within the project for names containing ßäöü

Where there is no common English name (like Munich), it seems to be standard practice for articles on German locations to use the correct German name, including ä,ö,ü,and ß. This takes account of the need for correctness.

In order to cater to American readers unfamiliar with both the correct names and the standard transliterations, I suggest making the following additional measures declared recommended practice in the project:

  1. The template {{Foreignchar}} (or an equivalent) should always be used (explaining each "foreign" character, with links).
  2. A redirect should always be provided for the standard transliteration (ß->ss; ä->ae; ö->oe; ü->ue)
  3. A redirect should always be provided for the non-standard (American) transliteration omitting diacritics.

Thus, the article on a place called Füßen would start with


and would have a redirect from Fussen as well as Fuessen. In this case, of course, Fuessen would have to be a disambiguation link rather than a redirect, because there is als a town called "Füssen". --Boson 14:21, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

in this case actually:
The other template is for single characters only. Agathoclea 19:16, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Brackets in town names

is the rule that the German disambiguation system for town names is left out, and not done by brackets still enforced? Towns with brackets in their official German name, like Frankfurt (Oder) and Fürstenwalde (Spree), should be moved by that rule? There has been few support for this rule in Talk:Frankfurt (Oder), when the move has been discussed. Probably because the resulting creations like "Frankfurt an der Oder" could be original thought. I'm active in the German Wikipedia, and we have lots of rules that are not enforced and objected by the "reign of the minority". We even have articles move-protected by admins who don't want to have them at the discussed headword. I don't hope this will also be such a big problem here in en.wiki. --androl (talk) 20:16, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

  • I did, and still do, support moving to Frankfurt an der Oder, or even Frankfort on Oder, until the parenthesis catches on in English - if it ever does. We do not usually have admin problems; we have small handfuls of patriotic users of different nations, each of which wants to make en.wiki use their national style. None of them seem to reciprocate by moving fr:Londres or de:Kalifornien, though....Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:15, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Subdivisions ?

Hi there, I've asked there: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Germany/Cities#Naming convention ? about naming conventions of subdivisions. May somebody have a answer for the Hamburg-Foo question or it is the Foo problem ? Plz ;-) Sebastian scha. (talk) 19:01, 15 May 2008 (UTC)