Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Films/Core

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WikiProject Films
General information ( v • d • e ) Main project page + talk  → Discussion archives Style guidelines talk Announcements and open tasks talk  → Articles needing attention talk  → Nominations for deletion talk  → New articles talk  → Requests talk  → Stubs talk Resources Showcase Film Portal talk Fiction noticeboard talk
Project organization Coordinators talk Participants talk Project banner talk Project category talk
Departments Assessment talk Categorization talk Contest talk Films based on books talk Future films talk Missing films talk Outreach talk Review talk Spotlight talk
Task forces General topics Film awards talk Film festivals talk Filmmaking talk Genre War films talk National and regional Argentine cinema talk Australian cinema talk Canadian cinema talk Chinese cinema talk French cinema talk Indian cinema talk Italian cinema talk Japanese cinema talk Korean cinema talk New Zealand cinema talk Persian cinema talk Southeast Asian cinema talk Spanish cinema talk
Templates banner DVD citation infobox plot cleanup stub userbox

Contents 1 Organization... 2 Regional task forces 2.1 Argentina (9) 2.2 Australia (6) 2.3 Iran (3) 2.4 Korea (10) 2.5 Southeast Asia (10) 2.6 Ok, so... 3 An interim proposal

[edit] Organization...

1) Lacking any key, it would make life much easier if the Core List titles were presented by YEAR.

2) Separate the Award categories into a separate list, please.

3) Some groundbreaking/innovative movies were neither popular (initially) nor critically acclaimed. How do we deal with this?

BTW, now that I've seen the list it'll be easier to get started. Cheers, Shir-El too 14:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

1 - The list is sortable, so you can order it by whichever scheme you wish.

2 - Why? They can already be isolated on the basis of source.

3 - We don't - we're not trying to flag every groundbreaking or innovative film. Additionally, we're trying to be as relatively objective as possible by working off of external metalists, but since the subject is subjective, no list will never be "perfect". However, the core has no function if it is allowed runaway growth - there need to be boundaries and qualifications, and this means that the vast majority of films will be excluded. Most of them probably justifiably so, and certainly a small number unfairly so. That being said, no list will please everyone (myself included). Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 01:02, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Message(s) received and understood. Thank you, Shir-El too 12:16, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

P.S. 1 - How do I sort it mechanically? Tks, Shir-El too 12:18, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Click the small icon next to the column titles. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 12:55, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Regional task forces

Are the core articles for the regional task forces included in the list, or have they yet to be determined? As a member of the Korean task force, I have to question the inclusion of some of these films. Feathers in the Wind and Marathon appear to be on the list (and correct me if I'm wrong) because of a few hundred user votes on IMDb. But The Host and The King and the Clown don't make the list, despite being the two most successful films at the South Korean box office. PC78 (talk) 11:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that is basically correct. The list generally defers to the TSPDT metalist for regional task forces, but in the case of Korea, there were no entries. (I presume this is mainly because the industry really only taken off very recently, and therefore hasn't had time to settle into lists yet.) Box office performance alone is generally a poor measure for long-term encyclopedic usage, and unless one can find a list that accounts for inflation, will not be able to give any insight into the actual number of viewers. However, perhaps the IMDb minimum votes number could be raised? Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 12:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you're being a little dismissive of box office performance, especially as this list is going to receive regular updates; certainly I think it carries a lot more weight than the opinions of a handfull of users on IMDb. In the case of South Korea, box office performance is determined by the number of tickets sold rather than financial gross, so there is no inflation to account for. I would certainly agree that the minimum number of IMDb votes should be raised, to at least 500 and possibly even 1000 (no film on this list has received less than 4500 votes, so I don't see that being a problem).

If so many places on the list are being allocated to various task forces, shouldn't it be the task forces themselves that decide what goes on the list? PC78 (talk) 13:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

First of all, the list is not going to be receive regular updates - if we're constantly revising the Core list, it has no stability and throws off the entire concept. There is never going to be a "perfect" list for everyone's tastes, but it would be best to avoid constant revision and specific nitpicking on particular choices. Therefore, a "what about film X?" argument shouldn't have any weight. On the other hand, disagreements as to general list parameters, such as your critique of the IMDb bar being set too low, are a good point, and I think that the number of votes required should be raised. The only question is how much. Here are how the IMDb picks for the relevant countries would look if adjusted to either 1000 or 500 votes (disclaimer: I haven't actually checked the links, so they may not direct to the appropriate article):

[edit] Argentina (9)

1000

1. The Motorcycle Diaries
2. The Official Story
3. Nine Queens
4. Son of the Bride
5. Intimate Stories
6. Valentin
7. The Aura
8. Carandiru
9. The Method

500

1. Esperando la carroza
2. Ashes of Paradise
3. Common Ground
4. The Motorcycle Diaries
5. Man Facing Southeast
6. The Official Story
7. Nine Queens
8. Son of the Bride
9. A Place in the World

[edit] Australia (6)

1000

1. Breaker Morant
2. Harvie Krumpet
3. Moulin Rouge
4. Dark City
5. Gallipoli
6. Mad Max 2

500

1. Breaker Morant
2. Harvie Krumpet
3. Saw
4. My Brilliant Career
5. Moulin Rouge
6. Dark City

[edit] Iran (3)

1000

1. Turtles Can Fly
2. Children of Heaven
3. Baran

500

1. Marmoulak
2. Turtles Can Fly
3. Children of Heaven

[edit] Korea (10)

1000

1. Oldboy
2. Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter...and Spring
3. Memories of Murder
4. My Sassy Girl
5. Taegukgi
6. Oasis
7. A Moment to Remember
8. 3-Iron
9. Failan
10. Christmas in August

500

1. Oldboy
2. Marathon
3. Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter...and Spring
4. Memories of Murder
5. My Sassy Girl
6. Taegukgi
7. Oasis
8. Peppermint Candy
9. A Moment to Remember
10. 3-Iron

[edit] Southeast Asia (10)

1000

1. Last Life in the Universe
2. Beautiful Boxer
3. Shutter
4. The Scent of Green Papaya
5. Ong Bak
6. Cyclo
7. Three Seasons
8. The Protector
9. Tears of the Black Tiger
10. The Vertical Ray of the Sun

500

1. Last Life in the Universe
2. Beautiful Boxer
3. Citizen Dog
4. Shutter
5. The Scent of Green Papaya
6. 6ixtynin9
7. Ong Bak
8. Cyclo
9. Be With Me
10. Three Seasons

The core list is to be updated once a year (so it says on the project page - note that I said regular, not frequent). Having thought about it some more, I'm not sure that even 1000 votes is enough; let's be honest, in the grand scheme of things, 1000 is not a lot of people. Also, you seem to be going by the average vote given to each film, but wouldn't a greater test of popularity be the total number of votes received? I'm still adamant that box office results need to be factored in, though. Perhaps have the top five from the box office, and top five from IMDb? PC78 (talk) 02:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

No, that would only measure a function of the most seen films. What we're trying to identify is articles central to the subject for an encyclopedia, which would be a mix of critical, public, and industry opinion, and not one to the exclusion of others. Core articles should have long-term relevance, which means that they ideally should be films that will continue to be relevant not only ten years from now, but a hundred.

Frankly, I'm happy with either the 1000 or 500 list, although I do slightly prefer the 1000 one. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 03:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but as we all know IMDB is not a reliable source... this isn't article space, but I've read stories of IMDB being gamed a bit (I know they've claimed to fix that but still), its only a single source and there is no evidence that its actually representative of public opinion. in fact most statisticians will tell you that IMDB is not representative of public opinion as things like online polls tend to attract people with strong opinions (the extremes) and can't be used to make any judgement calls on a larger population.--Crossmr (talk) 05:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure where to comment here, but I'm in the Japan-Korea film projects. About Korea: At first glance, I'm not sure what criteria is being used for inclusion, but it seems extremely recent/blockbuster-centric. True, Korean film has really taken off since the late '90s, but that's because the '70s and '80s were relatively bad decades. There was a "Golden Age" in the 1950s and '60s, which the west barely knows about, and a mini-Golden Age during the silent era. By far the most important Korean film of all time, I would think-- picture Citizen Kane and Birth of a Nation rolled into one-- would have to be Arirang (1926 film). It's a lost film, but almost all pre-Korean War films are lost, as are many before 1970. About the removal of Feathers in the Wind-- Sure, it's a small little film, and I'm not claiming it belongs here either, but Korean critics have claimed it is the best romance filmed in the country. The book 1,000 Films You Must See Before You Die lists only two Korean films-- The Housemaid (1961) which I think definitely belongs on any list of important Korean films, and Attack the Gas Station (1999), which I don't know much about. Every text I've read on "important" Korean films also includes Yu Hyun-mok's Obaltan (1960). HERE is a site which lists 100 important pre-1996 films. Dekkappai (talk) 18:59, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps delegating task force picks to the task force is worth considering. I'd have to ask, however, that the films be chosen through some sort of methodology and not merely through personal picks. (ie - I would prefer them derived from some sort of list, and preferably one created through at least several people's opinions.) If you have something in mind, it would be good to hear it. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 20:11, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd agree that personal choices from editors here should not be the criteria for inclusion on any list. Perhaps national task forces would be the best places to make film lists. (But, is there a Japan film task force yet?... If not-- I don't think there is-- I would suspect that many other countries also do not have film task forces.) To draw up a list, I would look at what the critics have chosen as the key films for the country-- both local critics and international critics with a specialization in the national cinema. For (South) Korea especially, going only by box-office or ticket-numbers or by IMDB ranking is going to result in a very recent-centric, fan-mentality list. Lee Young-il is an important Korean critic whose (pre-1988) history of the national cinema has been translated. I'll look at that to see if he has a list of important films. Otherwise films discussed at length would give a clue... Also HERE is a good short history which mentioning key films throughout the history of Korean film. Dekkappai (talk) 21:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

It's a good point and I'm curious, but how exactly are you going to determine the ten with some degree of objectivity? I'm also not 100% convinced that IMDb necessarily equals recentism, although it may be somewhat biased that way. See the Australian list or some of the Argentine picks, both of which go back to the early 80s. Indeed, part of the reason why these particular cinemas are having to defer to the IMDb lists is precisely because their cinemas are relatively newer or have only recently undergone wider recognition. I agree with you that there are noteworthy earlier Korean films, but on the other hand, consider the fact that most westerners had almost no chance to be exposed to Korean films until the last ten years or so. This may explain the recentism as easily.

As for the task forces, it is true that we are still in the process of creating them. Also, I prefer not to initiate unless there is expressed interest from a number of editors, so if you want a Japanese cinema task force, please do feel free to request it and gather several others who are also willing to participate. (I'm making an exception for English-language cinemas, since we are the English Wikipedia, but generally this is how it works...) Task forces which do not yet exist, however, will not be excluded from this list; as the page mentions, each will be allotted another ten slots as the task forces go online. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 03:44, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ok, so...

I've revised the list to bring the IMDb minimum votes threshold up to 1000, and have added the New Zealand task force slots as per the current schemata. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 04:53, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but it's still not enough. You're placing far too much importance on the opinions of IMDb users (and in some cases, not an awful lot of IMDb users). And you still haven't satisfactorily explained to me why box office performance can't be factored in, especially when there are other films on the list based on their box office results alone.

In the absence of any better suggestions, I don't see why task force members can't choose ten films through an informed concensus. It can't be that hard, and it would almost certainly provide a more relevant selection of films. PC78 (talk) 00:02, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Because box office is not indicative of the legacy of the film - and it can't even be used as a model for audience approval of the content, since they are "voting for" the film prior to watching it by purchasing a ticket. The least you can say for the IMDb is that users are making informed ratings from having seen the films. I'd also like the strongly emphasize the fact that the Core list is not meant as a popularity contest in any ways - it's meant to reflect the films which have been indicated by the consensus of reliable sources - or at least unbiased ones - to have long-term encyclopedic merit and influence. While it is certainly true that the IMDb may not be the most eminent of lists, it at least meets the bar that the core list should be formed at the least from outside sources with no investment in the picks. I am happy to look at other sources if you have a better ideas for where the films should be drawn from. If you're asking for a user vote here, that basically destroys the entire concept of the Core, and I cannot in good conscience support that. Understand the IMDb method was simply chosen out of a poverty of other options known to me - while it's certainly not bulletproof, I don't think it's automatically worthless either. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 05:32, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Here is a poll that seems to have been taken in the Korean film industry for the top Korean films. I can't read Korean, and the Google translation is (unsurprisingly) rather poor, although somewhat decipherable. Perhaps this could be used for the Korean task force? Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 05:50, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

IMDB is not indicative of the legacy of the film either as I pointed out above. We don't choose a method that is poor simply because a better one hasn't been put forth. Instead we should not be currently choosing one until an acceptable method is found. There is absolutely NO evidence that people rating films on IMBD are making informed ratings having seen the film. Last I checked IMDB didn't employ someone whose job it was to interview each person who left a rating to ascertain that they did indeed view the film and chose an appropriate rating. I don't remotely support using IMDB to establish a list here. However in the same vein I also don't support using box office. Hype generating a big opening weekend box office (which can carry a film to a big take) doesn't denote quality. The only thing useful in establishing a ranking is an aggregate of critical acclaim for movies, similar to metacritic. Anything else is unreliable.--Crossmr (talk) 02:18, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

And as I pointed out to you, 25 films on the list are there solely because of their box office performance in the US. Will you be removing those for the same reasons you give above? I understand that you don't have much to go on besides IMDb, and unfortunately I can't offer you anything better (besides those sources mentioned above by Dekkappai), but it simply isn't sufficient (certainly not by itself), and undermines what you are trying to achieve here. Also, while I'm not too familiar with TSPDT and have no wish to question its veracity, I am somewhat concerned that the list as a whole relies heavily on a single source.

What I'm advocating is an informed discussion and concensus, not a popularity contest. I don't see how this would "destroy the entire concept of the Core"; as far as I can tell, the Biography Project drew up their list of 200 core articles by discussion and concensus alone, and it seems to have worked for them. PC78 (talk) 11:33, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, since you seem so keen on using IMDb and since I don't believe that it is entirely "worthless", why not incorporate the top 25 or so films from the IMDb top 250? If nothing else it would get The Shawshank Redemption on the list, a glaring omission since it reguarly polls as one of the greatest films of all time. PC78 (talk) 11:45, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

As regards the TSPDT link, it is a gigantic critical metalist, and therefore cannot be regarded as a single source. As for the rest of the comments, it seems that consensus is against using the IMDb entirely, while inclusion based on box office has been both advocated and criticized. I must admit that I myself was ambivalent about using box office as a criterion, but I am also aware that there are differing opinions as to what should be on the Core list, so it seems best (to me) to allow some degree of plurality of interests, and surely the comments both for and against box-office being used indicate that a compromise may need to be made. That is why all-time inflation-adjusted box office winners are included, as well as why they are only a small proportion instead of a share equal to the TSPDT critical list. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 03:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The metalist looks good and is really the only way we can objectively pick these. Not all taskforces may have this luxury, but perhaps they can find multiple opinions from critics in their respective areas and create a list based on that.--Crossmr (talk) 15:26, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

With regards to the Korean list, I've done a bit of digging and managed to find a top 50 list of films between 1948 and 1998. Perhaps it could be of some use? PC78 (talk) 15:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

That's a start. My concern would be the fact that its written in 1998 and it was really shortly after that that Korean cinema really took off in to full flight. We can use it as a starting point if we begin to combine it with the opinions of other reliable critics.--Crossmr (talk) 15:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

• Following a comment I made on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Films/Assessment, I'd like to add my voice to those who think this proposal is a welcome change. In particular, choosing core articles from the film history of various nations is a great way to counter systemic bias and encourage a wider perspective on film history. Pichpich (talk) 14:24, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] An interim proposal

From the discussions above, it is obvious that there is still much debate regarding some of the methodology, particular with regards to both the top box office slots and the task force allocations. From the comments that have been made - as well as what has not been said by anyone - I'd like to propose the following actions for the meantime which appear to have consensus.

1. As there has been no objections regarding the deprecation of the importance parameter, the parameter will be removed from the project banner shortly, in conjunction with some necessary cosmetic restructuring.
2. A core parameter will be added which will categorize the Talk pages of core articles into a "Core film articles" category.
3. The core list shall - for the moment - only be composed of the top 250 from the TSPDT list, as well as the task force slots which were able to be filled by defaulting to TSPDT.
4. The remaining task force slots will be reserved until consensus emerges as to how their content is determined.
5. Any additional slots to be allocated must be based on a methodology involving outside lists or polls and not on any editor's personal opinions or any sort of editorial voting for particular articles. (Note that this does not bar attempts to create consensus about which lists may be used.)

This will at least allow us to transition towards commencing the Core department and thus also begin focusing on setting up the core contest. Thoughts? Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 08:47, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I have no objections with 1 and 2; in case I haven't made it clear before, I fully support the introduction of the core article list. 3 is also fine I suppose, though I was never suggesting that we don't use box office stats (though preferably these should international rather than US only figures); having said that, there does perhaps need to be more discussion about which sources are to be used for the list. I'm also happy with 4, and I don't think that this is something that necessarily needs to be resolved prior to the introduction of the core list. About point 5: is this in relation to the task force slots or the list as a whole? PC78 (talk) 17:27, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, going off of box office has raised some objections (and I must admit to being fairly reluctant to include it myself), so I'm leaving it off for now. It's not a definitive decision at the moment, though. As for point 5, both. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 19:40, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

For later, perhaps: that a waiting list of titles be created for movies proposed for later inclusion in the Core List, after the current titles have been sufficiently documented, edited etc. That way, all suggested additions will be available for later review and discussion. Also, it seems probable that some non-English language movies may actually have higher box-office ratings than Core List entries, so that we need a variety of criteria. Thank you, Shir-El too 22:39, 16 March 2008 (UTC)