Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christian Metal

[edit] Proposed WikiProjects merger?

I've noticed that there are several independent WikiProjects related to Christian music all with very small memberships (or at least only a few active participants). I would like to propose to the WikiProject the possible merger of these projects into one WikiProject (probably entitled Christian music WikiProject with task forces for each genre (Contemporary Christian music, Southern Gospel, urban contemporary gospel, etc.). The other option is to make Christian music as a whole a task force under the Christianity Wikiproject. Please share your thoughts on this issue on the discussion page on the Christian music portal. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 19:46, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Update

Looks like we have a consensus from the major project editors. I took information and formats from the four main pages to start the project. It's located at Wikipedia:WikiProject Christian music. I haven't done categories and Task Force Pages yet because I figured there would be discussion needed. Please feel free to edit what's been done as you all see fit. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 19:14, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Recomendation: I think that the Grammy Nominated Christian Metal albums should be worked on soon

The Grammy Award nominations were announced on December 6, 2007 for Best Rock or Rap Gospel Album. These included the Christian Metal related albums/groups:

• The Reckoning (album) by Pillar (band)
• Comatose (album) by Skillet (band)

I recommend that these articles be brought up to "B" or "GA" status as soon as possible. The winner will be announced February 10, 2008, and people will be looking at these articles a lot (also need to watch out for vandalism). Thanks Antmusic (talk) 22:34, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Source Question

NOTE: I'm posting this on both WikiProject Christian music and WikiProject Christian Metal to get some help on this subject.

I'm not going to give out a link for my site but I started using the mediawiki software to start my own Christian Music Wiki with my own criteria and my own rules. So when quoting and getting info I have different standards then this wiki.

So here's the question, for this wiki what can I do with unsourced information? Let's be honest a lot of things have happened in Christian music that are not documented or come from pages that some people on this wikipedia would call into question.

For example I have tapes of Lightmusic and CCMTV when they were on the air in my area. Lightmusic heavily promoted DC Talk's Free at Last the movie. Can I just add this info without having a source? Again I want to help out but can I add this info without being able to really show the source? What about what Toby Mac said at Creation Festival about their (DC Talk) mainstream push? I'm not sure this was ever documented in any magazine or online.

I also used to do my own sort of archiving of Christian music in the 90's. I have an e-mail from Bride explaining that they were e-mail bombed by Dial the Truth Ministries for objecting to Bride being on their page. I believe I saved the diary of Keith Bannister of Mortification talking about how Steve Rowe was doing with cancer. I think I even saved the pages dealing with Stryper and the mexican incident. I even got to talk to people like Rod Feltman of Sardonyx who told me why they never signed a contract.

Some of these things I know are documented in magazines and online but overall I find info on the net lacking information on Christian Music, hence why I have my own wiki and want to help out here.

But can I add these things without much controversy here? Do you think I would have to have some way of proving what I know? I really need some input because I don't want to start a big controversy here after editing a couple of pages. I would like to work with the community and do things the right way.

Any feedback is appreciated.OfficialDoughboy (talk) 16:39, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, citing stuff that has not been published in reliable publications is pretty much original research, which is not allowed here. Of course it is possible to write about things that has not been published, but one would have to be really, really clever to not get caught for that. If I'm not mistaken, one can cite TV shows as sources but that is very rare and then the reference info should be very accurate. Your sources from diaries to personal discussions sound interesting but I'm afraid you can not cite them unless you or someone else publish the info in a book on a huge publisher or a very reliable website. Then again, one should think whether every info really has to be published (such as the details of Steve Rowe's cancer and Stryper's Mexican festival scandal). Seriously, not everything has to be published. I'm personally pretty frustrated that no one has written an extensive history about Christian metal; there are only books about Christian rock and CCM that mention some bands. In an ideal situation the Christian metal history would not have to be written separately from secular history, but it is sad that only the most significant bands such as Stryper get to be included in secular metal history books, and the rest are ignored as if they did not accomplish anything. --Azure Shrieker (talk) 21:49, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the response and good feedback. I don't take offense. And I'm with you and understand your frustrations. I have a friend who can't stand Stryper because he felt they got too much attention. I would like to put out some sort of book myself someday on the history of the industry from all aspects. But it's a dream at this point.

My only problem with what you say is just a frustration. Sure there's HM, of which I have almost every issue from 1989 up till 1998, but there are so many untold stories and truths out there and I wish I could add them here. That's why I started my site so I could have more freedom.

Again thanks for the info.OfficialDoughboy (talk) 22:54, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Wikipedia can be really limiting in that sense. It's usually quite difficult to write so convincing stuff that no one asks for its sources. That also depends on how underground the subject is (i.e. how many know anything about it) or how controversial is the content. A lot of the Christian Metal Project's articles such as Antestor used to be unreferenced and contain quotations that weren't backed up. That Antestor article stayed that way almost a half year because it was well-written, until it got tagged as unreferenced and someone had to rewrite the whole thing citing sources. I wish I had some HM Magazines from the 1990s so that I could include more reliable sources for the Christian metal article, as currently some of the sources contain fansites that the administrators consider poor and untrustworthy. By the way, since you've subscribed to HM for almost a decade and obviously know more about the scene than some of us, did you notice anything in the Christian metal article that lacks some notable info, bands, events, or contains biased content? I'm asking because there has been some quarrels over subjects such as the term "white metal" or whether the 1980s of Christian metal was officially called the "golden era." You don't have to answer if you're too busy to read the article. Good luck on your site.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 00:39, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Well if you want I could do some looking and bring up things on individual talk pages.

To answer your questions. White Metal was more important, from what I can remember, in other regions. I remember Horde(Jayson Sherlock) used the term "Un-Black." The arguement I heard on it and read came from the use of the term and the fact that it existed. There are those in the mainstream (those that listen to non-christian metal) who believe Christian metal is an abomination because it talks about good things and is not about rebellion. They claim that metal can't be used for good. That will always exist. I went through an extensive "debate" on Guitar Hero foruma while back about the subject of adding some Christian music to the game and I heard and saw almost most of the basic arguements against the style there.

As far as Golden Era, to be honest, I never heard the term till recently. I was reading some info on the HM site and the term came up in a Guy Ritter interview. It's kind of cool so I don't see a problem with using the term but it is a new term. And also it is very apparent it's a fan made term. Here's a link to the interview with Guy if you want to some info on the subject from a guy in that period of music - [1]

This is opinion and take it as such. Starting with Jerusalem, who I consider the beginning of Christian metal, till 1995 was a special time in Christian Music. Especially if you liked heavier acts. I think people get confused about what Styper did. They broke down the door and taboo on a music speaking an overtly Christian message in the mainstream and being a success, and opened the door for many acts and financing. But they didn't start the genre in Christian Music.

Anyways I really like talking about the subject and offering what help I can, so please ask away. I will try my best to help out. And I'm not afraid to admit I don't know everything. OfficialDoughboy (talk) 13:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Importance and new talk page

I created a new importance parameter for the {{christianmetal}} template. I also reformatted the talk page after WT:HMM and colours from WP:CMM, maybe we should have a different colour for the talk page? I also archived some stuff. – Jerry^teps 05:40, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I undid it because of a category error i'll try to get a new version up as soon asap. – Jerry^teps 05:40, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I fixed it, I should of used {{#if:{{class|}} instead of {{#ifeq:{{class|}}, i'll change it over in a sec once I fixed some minor details with it. – Jerry^teps 05:55, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I encountered yet another bug and it'll probably be a few days before the final version is fixed. (unless I get to stay on the internet for longer o_0) – Jerry^teps 03:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

There... I'm pretty sure it's fine now. – Jerry^teps 03:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Importance standard; Wikipedia:WikiProject Christian Metal/Assessment#Importance scale.

We should me the portal if that's what everyone wants? Because if we're not going to make it we should remove stuff about it on the main page. But I'd be willing to make it if people are willing to maintain it and change featured stuff every week. But the thing that bothers me is would we be aloud to in the first place? – Jerry^teps 04:27, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Good questions. I don't know what's Wikipedia's line on portals, but I would think it's ok since Christian metal covers a pretty huge phenomenon. Too bad many Christian metal project members are busy now. Even I don't have too much time to edit here, but I could maintain and update the portal few times a month maybe. Would the portal be difficult to make? By the way, great work on the importance scale thing, I'll try to assess some stuff when I have time. --Azure Shrieker (talk) 13:35, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll try to get a draft version up soon. I just read what you said about christian metal being big and your right, Wikipedia:WikiProject Christian music has only 54 articles in it's scope and we have 302.

I'll be able to update it fairly often since I have fair bit of free time on my hands, well now I do... But i'll do my best to update the page every week.

I just encounted an error while writing this. If an article has {{christianmetal|class=}} on it will show up in Category:Unassessed Christian Metal articles but if it has {{christianmetal}} on it it wont show up... I'll try to correct the problem as soon as possible. – Jerry^teps 02:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

There fixed it. I can rate every band that is unknown importance because I don't know of most of those bands so I couldn't say if they were importance or not. But mostly they are low importance but I don't want to make a mistake and rate them low importance. Oh did you notice the new talk page? – Jerry^teps 02:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

It is also possible to use a bot to rate the most of the articles for low importance, and then fix the rest manually afterwards. Not sure how to do that but the members of wikiproject album do that a lot. Yeah the new talk page is great. --Azure Shrieker (talk) 19:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Good idea. – Jerry^teps 03:12, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New portal

I made the Portal:Christian metal every now and then people are going to need to update it and add to it. – Jerry^teps 05:32, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

What bands does everyone listen to? I listen to (in no specific order); Dimmu Borgir, Paramaecium, Emperor, As I Lay Dying, Bring Me the Horizon, The Showdown + alot of other minor bands. – Jerry^teps 10:50, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Although the portal is under construction it looks great. I'll try to update it when possible or when I have time. I added a portal link to the main article. Too bad very there are very few free pics on Christian metal bands ub Commons, so for now we probably can't make a featured picture section for the portal. By the way, the main article lacks a sample for the power metal section. Should it be something by Seventh Avenue or Narnia or what? --Azure Shrieker (talk) 13:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I would say Narnia but it depends on what song you can get. If you can try and get a good song that displays true power metal. – Jerry^teps 02:39, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

There is also no music sample for doom metal, just gothic metal, what software do you use to cut a songs length down? I could get the begining from "The Unnatural Conception in Two Parts: The Birth and Massacre of the Innocents" or "Injudical" both by Paramaecium, the begining to "In Two Parts" has alot of doom in it but "Injudical"'s begining is heavier but faster so it's not as good a doom metal song. I own Exhumed of the Earth. I'll listen through the album again and find a good part to cut. – Jerry^teps 02:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, "Haemorrhage of Hatred" in my opinion feels the more "doomy" than the others. – Jerry^teps 03:14, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

A doom metal sample from Exhumed of the Earth would be great. There's more discussion about the samples on Talk:Christian metal but you can take a look at WP:Music samples. According to that page, the samples should be cut down with Audacity for zero quality 30 sec ogg vorbis format. One gets better quality samples if they are edited from WAV files but I made a couple of the samples from plain mp3 files. As for Narnia samples, how about "Living Water" from Long Live the King since the band plays that song in many of their concerts? Also "The Witch and the Lion" or "Shelter Through Pain" would also be fine choises since I've heard many people like those particular songs.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 10:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Try and see if you can extract a sample that displays power metal and sounds good, because you can't just extract a sample that sounds good but doesn't illustrate the sub-genre. I'll see if I can upload a song from Exhumed of the Earth later today. – Jerry^teps 00:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I uploaded a sample from Paramaecium. – Jerry^teps 05:06, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Great. Weird thing is that the sample is 59 kbps in quality while the other samples are approximately 65 kbps, but I don't hear a difference.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 09:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] importance and christian metal

The importance section makes the statistics way to big, maybe we should move it to a section below the members list?

Plus, do you reckon that the christian metal article would deserve A-class? Since I don't think we're going to get FA-class anytime soon... – Jerry^teps 00:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Looks all right on my screen but if you find that section too big then go a head and move it. The reviewers on the FA nomination page called it "a great article," so I guess Christian metal qualifies for A-class easily. --Azure Shrieker (talk) 09:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] There should be no merge

I belive we shouldn't merge, the project will become less active as it would be harder to locate, the template is harder, and I belive the User:Absolon just wants to be the creater of a wiki-task force so they will be more notable, like User:e_tac. Plus why should we merge? our project has more articles in it's scope than the christian music wikiproject so if anything the christian music should be merged with us. (but it shouldn't since they articles will be in a metal project o_0) User:Absolon just wants to be leader of the articles. WP:CMM is much more organised than the task force (to-do list is a list of not metal articles but what everyone on wikipedia wants) plus the christian music wikiproject stole our pagelayout! – Jerry^teps 02:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

"User:Absolon just wants to be the creater of a wiki-task force so they will be more notable, like User:e_tac"

What does that mean?--E tac (talk) 22:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The entire christian music wikiproject is less active than our project plus they have like 1/5th the members of us. they have 1/49th the amount of articles in our scope (the task force) plus I think the task force has only 1 member which is absolon. But the christian metal wikiproject has 2x the amount of articles as us, but that's irrelevent since we're talking about merging with the task-force. – Jerry^teps 02:26, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes. This project should stay the way it is and not merge in a way that Christian metal project would be deleted. There's currently a lot of activity on articles such as P.O.D.m Underoath, as I Lay Dying etc. going on. I thought the project "merge" was about forming somekind of union i.e. projects helping each other, not making 1 project in stead of keeping the on going projects. We are not a Christian music project, we are a Christian metal project. Take it easy, I'll clear this up with the Christian music project. By the way, we kind of loaned some of the layout idea from Wikiproject metal so, don't get too angry on Wikiprojcet Christian music loaning ours (though they should have at least changed the colors). --Azure Shrieker (talk) 10:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

If you note most of the members of the other projects simply became members of the specific work groups in the new project (i.e. the former CCM Project members are now members of the CCM work group). I had no intention of changing how the various groups function (after all I am only a editor myself). The thought was that by combining the projects we could unify efforts in editing and formatting the various genre articles. I took the best of all the projects and combined them (layout from yours, assesments from CCM, templates from Gospel, etc.) I hope that you will reconsider the merger proposal. I will leave your work group active in the new project and I have reopened your original project with the WikiProject Council.

On a personal note: I have no need to "just wants to be leader of the articles" or "be the creater of a wiki-task force so they will be more notable." I simply want to see Christian music as a whole better represented on Wikipedia. Believe it or not my life is full enough without notoriety on Wikipedia being a concern. This is the life of a ogre. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 13:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Azure Shrieker to keep the project the way it is. We've been making progress with many of the articles and some, like P.O.D. and Underoath, are on their way to reached GA-status and later featured status with the help of this WikiProject. Both WikiProjects should just help each other with some related articles with no need to merge. Quetzal123 (talk) 05:05, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Opps, the way I worded it made me sound angry lol, I wasn't angry I just worded it in a way that made it seem like I was angry. Hmm maybe we should just have some sort of partnership instead? Plus sorry for making those accusations against you Absolon. – Jerry^teps 06:35, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

We definitely could use input on items like article structures, what constitutes GA-status, what constitutes a reliable citation source, or any other areas relating to articles and lists. Partnerships are always appreciated. Hope to see you all around the workspace. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 13:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Our assessment scale is at Wikipedia:WikiProject Christian Metal/Assessment. – Jerry^teps 05:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Looks both projects are using the standard assessment scales produced by the editorial team (ours is here). I was actually looking more for input on what standard criteria we could use to rate an article in the various categories (i.e. a set number of sources, a certain amount of infobox information, inclusion of photos or sound clips, etc.). We have more than 500 "start" class and "B" class articles and if we can tell people what to add we can help them move toward "GA" class faster. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Absolon (talk • contribs) 14:05, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, for a GA-class article in my opinion it must have no spelling mistakes, maybe a band logo for the bands name. It should (pretty important) have at least one free photo of the band. Sound clips arn't that important but they add to the article. It should also contain 20+ references. The article must have a comprehensive biography and maybe a musical style section (important but not 100% nessecary) plus a complete discography with articles made for every album. – Jerry^teps 00:56, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

But that's my opinion, we should work together on creating a more formal and easy to read musical class standard. – Jerry^teps 00:56, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

That was my hope in consolidating the projects into one... I will take your suggestions back to the Christian music WikiProject where we are discussing a standardized format. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 21:24, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, ok. I'll see if I can help making a standardized format and hopefully others from this project will aswell. – Jerry^teps 01:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Here's my two cents, even though it is late. I fear that if the projects are merged, there will be less attention to the articles we are focusing on, when the point of a merge would be to help both. I doubt lots of the "Christian Music" wikipedians will want to edit our project's pages, as some may not like and/or may not want to edit these articles. The merger would hurt both ends of the stick. Err, and about them taking our template... we can just ask for it back, right? IronCrow (talk) 03:34, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Lol, we "stole" it from WP:HMM so technically i'm a hypocrite. I agree that the merge wouldn't create much more productivity. – Jerry^teps 08:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article Focus: Inactivity?

I know our project has not become inactive or anything, but there has been a resent string of neglection of the Christian metal article. We're doing great in reverting vandalism and keeping it in a NPOV, but I think we need to look at the article a bit more closely. I'm partially to blame for this, I apologize, I've been focusing more on my courses at college and I don't want to mess that up (of course). I know we all see great potential for a Featured Article, but I think we need to work a bit harder on it. Maybe a little clean-up here, a little addition/subtraction of information there, etc. I think now's the time we compile our ideas together and see what everyone thinks. I'm fresh out of ideas, however, so maybe someone else should go first. IronCrow (talk) 22:27, 1 April 2008 (UTC) By the way - I will be inactive for the next two weeks. I've got personal issues I have to deal with, and I really have no time for anything related to free time. If I was being rude to anyone please forgive me, I try not to, but with things as they are, don't expect me on much for the next month, though 2 weeks is probably all I will be gone. Thanks in advance. IronCrow (talk) 01:10, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The last Featured Article nomination brought up several issues, including "bad sources", "too many lists" (the fanzines - might as well delete those) and a major demand: "the whole article needs to be rewritten". All Music Guide keeps increasing its database on Christian metal as well and I'm sure there are people writing books on this stuff. I was thinking that maybe we should extend the Characteristics section. Since "often the Christian themes are melded with the subjects of the genre the band is rooted in, regularly providing a Christian take on the subject matter," we could give examples that what the typical Christian lyrics are like in the major and less major subgenres. For example, in death metal, Mortification provides their take on the gory, occult imagery on Scrolls: "maggots infests the mind of unbelievers in form on unholiness" etc. Holy Blood's folk metal lyrics talk about historical events such as the Christian baptising rites of the Russians during 10th century in contrast to the typical Pagan themes of the genre. Something like that. Second thing, I think we had some pretty good ideas to write a section about the differences between US and Europe. Maybe that could be turned into a section titled "Regional scenes" and include places like South America as well? (See the similar section in the Unblack metal article)--Azure Shrieker (talk) 08:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I reckon it needs a complete re-write, instead of just focusing on the history and Christian side of it maybe we should do something like the heavy metal page has. (Heavy_metal#Musical_language, but the history and christian side is still important, but we should focus on a broader range of christian metal related subjects, I didn't explain that very well, but basically we should add more than just history onto the page) – Jerry^teps 08:55, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, though I think it is a great article with no need for a re-write, but since Wikipedia can't ever seem to be satisfied, we might as well.¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 03:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed merger with WikiProject Christian music/Christian Metal music

There are currently two separate project pages for the same subject, this one and Wikipedia:WikiProject Christian music/Christian Metal music. One should go. Considering that the banner for the other group is set up to provide assessments for this project as well, I would personally, as a bit of an outsider, favor using that banner to reduce banner overcrowding, which would mean using that page. But one or the other should be deleted, probably fairly soon, so that the redundancy doesn't appear in the soon to be updated project directory. Otherwise, we may find a situation where one or the other, maybe both, pages are nominated for deletion. John Carter (talk) 19:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

No, actually, one shouldn't go. We've discussed this before. Also, many of the bands within Christian metal are not part of the Christian music industry (Virgin Black is a fine example). There's no need to delete either, as they are seperate and have done well without each other anyways. Not only that, but this project has been here for quite some time without any risk of being deleted. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 03:44, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What about this merger?

Ok, we've said no to the merger for quite some time simply because we know it will obviously not work out and that our project is doing fine without them. There's no problem with two projects doing the same articles sometimes, for instance, a wikiproject on poets could also do articles on novelists if that novelist was also a poet, etc. What I was wondering was: The last guy who posted stated that either project would risk deletion if there was no merge. I think that's ridiculous since, as I stated above and below, Christian Metal may be, in part, Christian music, however, there's the fact that the industries are different with not only bands but with views and such. The only tie with Amy Grant and As I Lay Dying is that they both start with an A and they are both Christians/bands/groups/people/etc. So I ask, why are they telling us that if we do not join we risk being deleted? Thoughts? ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 03:53, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, this project is going slow, but strong. Antestor recently passed good article status nomination. \m/ Woohoo! I think this project falls somewhere between Wikiproject Heavy Metal and Wikiproject Christian music, but Personally I prefer to think that Wikiproject Christian Metal is more closely related to Wikiproject Heavy Metal than Wikiproject Christian Music. If there should be a merger, it had to be made with Wikiproject Heavy Metal, but I don't that is going to work since so far not too many people from that project have shown interest for Christian metal. And the Wikiproject Christian Music's Christian-metal-work-group thing has not been active at all so far so why would it work after a merger? Nobody is interested in joining that. It has been said many times and I will say it again: This project is fine on its own. --Azure Shrieker (talk) 09:44, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree 100%: Especially with the "Wikiproject Heavy Metal than Wikiproject Christian Music" since the Hevy metal project tends to actually edit the Christian metal articles while the Christian music wikiproject... doesn't, except for the popular metal articles, and even taht is a rarity. I've noticed there's been work done on the main page as well, I like it, but I'll have to check the iamges and what not, haven't just yet. But yeah, I agree. I think a reason for the downtime is that the past semester was school for many Americans and Canadians who attend college and grade schools, so, I guess this summer this will pick up. Hopefully, at least. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 14:00, 1 June 2008 (UTC)