Talk:Widows and orphans

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This page disagrees with Widow (typesetting) -- Tarquin 08:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Opposite! 2 Let’s look to see what Bringhurst says 3 Okay, once and for all 4 Merge with Widow (typesetting) 5 There are multiple means for these terms 6 From Microsoft Word Help

[edit] Opposite!

This information is a totally opposite meaning about Widows & Orphans. I have no idea to fix it. I just want to say be careful guys...

[edit] Let’s look to see what Bringhurst says

There seems to be much confusion all round. According to Robert Bringhurst’s, Elements of Typographic style, page 43 and I quote "Never begin a page with the last line of a multi-line paragraph, The typographic terminology is telling. Isolated lines created when paragraphs begin on the last line of a page are known as orphans. They have no past, but they do have a future, and they need not trouble the typographer. The stub-ends left when paragraphs end on the first line of a page are called widows. They have a past but not a future, and they look foreshortened and forlorn. It is the custom – in most, if not in all, the world’s typographic cultures – to give them one additional line for company."

(I would add that the exception is the typesetting of Hebrew bibles where widows are acceptable for traditional reasons)

So in the wiki article it is incorrect to say that orphans should be suppressed. In fact Jan Tschichold states in the Form of the Book page 136, "Some people spurn the first line of a new paragraph at the bottom of a page. It would seem to me, however, that avoiding it can be no more than wishful thinking. ... It is only when paragraphs are leaded, and when there is an empty space above the single last line, that they become obnoxious."

RaphaelFreeman 11:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Okay, once and for all

Widows are at the top of a page, orphans are at the bottom. I have corrected the definition, moved the (incorrectly named) image to the right page, and added a couple of references. Please do not revert these pages back to the incorrect definitions! 143.252.80.110 21:16, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with Widow (typesetting)

Large parts of the two articles, and of their talk pages, discuss widows and orphans, and the difference between them. Some content and talk is even exactly duplicated. The articles are intermingled to the extent that both terms, in both articles, are bold faced rather than internally linked to. I think they should both be merged into a new article titled something like Widow and Orphan (typesetting). 132.68.248.39 22:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I hope this is done to everybody's satisfaction. --Taejo|대조 00:16, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] There are multiple means for these terms

The confusion that many people have voiced in the past on this talk page is because there are multiple meanings for these terms. One is regarding a left over line that starts or ends a paragraph at the beginning or end of a page. The other is regarding very short lines at the end of paragraphs. I have added the other meaning, with sources, to the intro. If we want to present the terms in more contrast to each other, I wouldn't mind if someone adjusted my text, but I think it is important to mention both definitions.-Andrew c 14:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I have edited to remove a lot of the repetition and hopefully make clear that widow refers to the last line of a paragraph (which may or may not fall at the top of a page) and orphan refers to the first line (which is cut off at the bottom of a page), 143.252.80.100 16:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] From Microsoft Word Help

A widow is the last line of a paragraph printed by itself at the top of a page. An orphan is the first line of a paragraph printed by itself at the bottom of a page.