User talk:Whig/Archive 2

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Non-critical

It was a joke at my own expense. You'll survive. Vanished User ^talk 20:17, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I thought you were talking about the summary. As for the edit - well, see the talk page. The source given isn't very good (in that it's rambling and frequently off-topic), so I think that's all we can say based on it. If there's other sources, of course we can say more. Vanished User ^talk 20:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Response re RDO on Dana's talk page

Hi Whig. I have responded to your comment on Dana's talk page. If you want to debate it with me, why not come over to my talk page or debate it here to save Dana from having to read it. We could then make Dana aware of our conclusions, if any. He can join in too of course - it's just getting cluttered over there! Thanks --DrEightyEight (talk) 20:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure which comment in particular you are wanting to debate, and I'm not sure why we should be discussing Dana behind his back. If you want to discuss something with me that has nothing to do with Dana, then of course this is the talk page you should be coming to. I am not Dana's mentor and am not responsible for him, so if you have concerns of that nature you'd be better off talking to LaraLove. —Whig (talk) 23:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Whig, I wasn't offering to talk about Dana behind his back, just clarify any confusion you had over the astrology reference and avoid cluttering Dana's page. Either you can't comprehend English or you are deliberately misinterpreting things. I now see that you are a very uncivil person, so I will no longer have any discussions with you. Goodbye. --DrEightyEight (talk) 08:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Why should you be clarifying RDOlivaw's astrology reference? Let RDOlivaw come here and clarify him/herself. Nor have I been uncivil with you. —Whig (talk)

Whig, Dr88 has a clear MO: He feigns emotional rupture from the slightest remarks and calls people "uncivil" whether it exists or not. Then, any error that other people make are not just minor errors but evidence, according to him, of sheer ignorance. I don't live in that black and white world, and I hope that we all honor the world of rainbows. Dana Ullman ^Talk 03:26, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Goodbye to them "both", I guess. —Whig (talk) 05:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Vanished

What happened to Vanished? Anthon01 (talk) 02:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe he has left Wikipedia. —Whig (talk) 03:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Well I believe he was involved in having me banned. Anthon01 (talk) 03:16, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Involved or not, he didn't ban you. East718 did. —Whig (talk) 03:18, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I know that. See here. [1] Anthon01 (talk) 03:23, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Not my concern. I'm sure whatever East718 did was in good faith. —Whig (talk) 03:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

You may get a kick out of this (kaneh bosem)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kabbalistic_tree_of_life_plus_hemp.png

Cheers, --TaylorOliphant (talk) 03:31, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting, but looks like original research. —Whig (talk) 03:49, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Hoffman

He filed a complaint against Adam then vanished? That doesn't make any sense to me. Why file a complaint against someone then disappear? And why isn't more standing up for Adam then, sounds like bull to me! --CrohnieGal^Talk 20:52, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Charles Matthews filed the complaint. —Whig (talk) 20:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry got the wrong name but it still doesn't make sense to me.--CrohnieGal^Talk 21:08, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I think there was a lot more to it than you see on-Wiki. Some evidence was blanked, and there were e-mail communications, all of which means that I hope you will put some confidence in the ArbCom, as they are hard working editors too, and they have been elected by the whole community. —Whig (talk) 21:10, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I do but I have to say I am really concerned with how many editors, including administrators, who have left. Something needs to be done to give better balance IMO. --CrohnieGal^Talk 21:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that I understand your concern, I know there are some editors who have been insisting that if their POV is not the only presented POV, they will leave Wikipedia, and I wish them safe voyage. NPOV means that all significant POVs must be included with reliable sources that are verifiable, and presented neutrally so that readers are able to form their own opinions. —Whig (talk) 21:17, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Crohnie/Sandbox#Editors_who_recently_retired I have been trying to keep track of those who leave. I hope this explains. --CrohnieGal^Talk 22:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

To me NPOV is that all sides get told just like you said. I am working the Crohn's disease article which of course I have a very strong POV about but I think I am working it for information so the average person understands what it is, I've even asked a few editors to check me to make sure I am improving and not using my POV. Not all of the editors that left because of their own POV they left because others were pushing their own and making it impossible to advance articles. Check out the Crohn's article and see what I am doing, and then give me an opinion. I am not afraid to have someone be honest with me so give it a try and see what I am doing. If you see something off, let me know please. --CrohnieGal^Talk 22:26, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know all the editors you listed, my comment was more in regards to the so-called "expert rebellion" that some editors are engaging in. —Whig (talk) 22:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Pardon me? You do know that calling other editors trolls is uncivil right?

You do realize that calling me a troll [2] is highly uncivil and people have been in administrative trouble for such things.--Filll (talk) 22:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I humbly suggest you might want to reconsider.--Filll (talk) 22:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I was referring to your edits, which were trolling. —Whig (talk) 22:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

No, I beg to differ. I want to reach an accommodation with you and an understanding of what NPOV is. I ask you to WP:AGF.--Filll (talk) 22:39, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I recommend reading WP:NPOV. —Whig (talk) 22:42, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I have read it several times. How do you explain or interpret:

NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all. from WP:UNDUE.
When reputable sources contradict one another, the core of the NPOV policy is to let competing approaches exist on the same page: work for balance, that is: describe the opposing viewpoints according to reputability of the sources, and give precedence to those sources that have been the most successful in presenting facts in an equally balanced manner. from WP:UNDUE
Please be clear on one thing: the Wikipedia neutrality policy certainly does not state, or imply, that we must "give equal validity" to minority views. [3]
Articles which cover controversial, disputed, or discounted ideas in detail should document (with reliable sources) the current level of their acceptance among the relevant academic community. If proper attribution cannot be found among reliable sources of an idea's standing. from WP:FRINGE.--Filll (talk) 23:56, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

What is there to explain or interpret? It seems self-explanatory. —Whig (talk) 23:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

First of all WP:FRINGE is a content guideline. I am not disagreeing with it in saying this, but it is not equal to NPOV, and I have participated in changing guidelines which violated NPOV in the past. —Whig (talk) 00:00, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

So you are saying WP:FRINGE has no bearing on homeopathy? Why is that? And what content guidelines did you change?--Filll (talk) 00:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I have not commented on WP:FRINGE except to note that it is not policy, it is a content guideline, and if guidelines violate NPOV they can be changed. At one time the manual of style content guideline for biographical entries allowed starting them with their manner of address, i.e., Pope Benedict XVI was begun "His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI" in conformity to that guideline, which has since been changed. I have deleted your further comment as it begins with a personal attack claiming some agenda on my part. —Whig (talk) 01:23, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

A third time you delete my attempt to engage you in a friendly manner as trolling? I will not try again. Oh well. You made your bed. And now you can lie in it. Sorry, but I will only try so hard and then I give up. --Filll (talk) 03:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you can file another RfC against me. —Whig (talk) 04:01, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

FYI

[4] [5] Lara❤Love 08:01, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Chris Bennet

I checked out that article a bit. I've read a lot like it and I have a copy of the green gold book.

I actually started to call Chris to use as a reference but he's super busy and in all honesty, he's kind of a prick if you ask him to do something on the fly from what I've heard. (Understandable) I don't even know for sure that he is aware of the kabbalistic link, but I do believe he would put his name on the fact that tiferet's paths do look like a cananbis leaf if he was made aware. I am taking a bit of flack for not having a Chris Bennet-like name to back up my image's utility. I will probably call him when I get the time.

Feel free to let me know if you have any other comments or suggestions. =) --TaylorOliphant (talk) 22:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment. You have irc? Maybe even email -Much better mode of communication for telling me to stfu. =) Much love bro --TaylorOliphant (talk) 08:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, no, feel free to express stfu'ness on wikipedia. That's why this is such a great resource, constructive criticism. Thanks again / God Bless--TaylorOliphant (talk) 08:40, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Update 2/13: I wrote a little summary of my wikiexperience for one of the admins. If you get a chance, check it out and tell me if you think I'm addressing the situation properly at this point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:B#Godislove.png

My first few moves on wikipedia weren't the biggest crowd pleasers, but I think everything has been correctd perfectly. =) --TaylorOliphant (talk) 18:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, there's a learning curve to everything. :) —Whig (talk) 18:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Question

Could you clarify what your post on VU talk page means? Anthon01 (talk) 02:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

For what it is worth, I would prefer that the matter be dropped at this point, per my comments on that page. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Will do. —Whig (talk) 05:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Spicuzza article

Thanks for the comment. What did she talk to you about then? Griot (talk) 06:45, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Answer

Sorry, but I didn't get around to answering your question amidst all the inappropriate discussion and cross-commenting going on. That's the problem with disruptive editing. I'll try to get back to your question when I get a chance. --Ronz (talk) 17:38, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Do you think that comments like this are appropriate [6]? I do not. --Ronz (talk) 17:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I think that comment was appropriate. You still have not gotten around to answering my question, and I'm not interested in going round in circles again. —Whig (talk) 18:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

You've not answered mine either. Should I accuse the same of you then? --Ronz (talk) 18:04, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

This is disruptive. I believe it is time for an RfC. —Whig (talk) 18:07, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is disruptive. I'm asking for people to follow WP:TALK, and instead I get disruption. --Ronz (talk) 18:16, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not agreeing to disagree. If someone cannot follow WP:TALK, disruption results. I'm agreeing that there's disruption. I'm saying it is being caused by multiple editors, including yourself, who are repeatedly violating WP:TALK. --Ronz (talk) 01:57, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Top heading

For some reason, the automatic archiver may not want to archive this section. —Whig (talk) 07:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

John Roberts's education

Please provide a citation showing that Chief Justice John Roberts ever attended Sacred Heart. I am reasonably sure that he matriculated to Harvard after high school.

I have tagged it for citation. When you find facts in the encyclopedia you think may be wrong, placing a {{fact}} tag lets other editors know that a citation is necessary. This is preferable to deleting, unless the unverified fact is harmful. —Whig (talk) 10:27, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Sure thing. Sorry about that. I usually don't edit, but from now on, if I see something that's suspect, I'll do that. Take care.

Thanks

I actually have posted on WT:NPOV and RS/N and while the large majority of editors agreed with my understanding of NPOV, the pseudosacience crowd have persisted in pushing their version of NPOV and RS. Filll is always claiming he knows NPOV but I suspect his view is somewhat distorted.Anthon01 (talk) 13:54, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I have added this for discussion. Anthon01 (talk) 14:03, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I didn't assume bad faith. I think Filll was being sincere. I just laughed when I saw the 98% comment, especially in light of he fact that he was lecturing me on NPOV. Anthon01 (talk) 19:51, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I've had discussions with Filll about NPOV and I find his interpretations quite novel. However, we have had them and do not need to rehash them on WT:NPOV more than needed to allow neutral editors to comment. —Whig (talk) 20:08, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Bénard cells

Until I found your mention of Bénard cells on Talk:Water memory, I never knew that this phenomenon has a name. Thank you. - Eldereft ~(s)talk~ 22:14, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Accusations have been made...

Whig, I have asked you directly several times, particularly in the aftermath of your complaining about allegedly "uncivil" behaviour on my part whether you had instituted any action against user DanaUllman for effectively accusing me of lying about whether I was in possession of a journal article that was the subject of discussion. I would be grateful for an answer and you have not placed one on my Talk page whether the question was posed to you.OffTheFence (talk) 07:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

How would I institute an action? —Whig (talk) 08:11, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know. You're the expert. You did do this [7] but I didn't notice you citing any of DU's actions as part of that, though did say this of me "OffTheFence edits only one article and never provides any verifiable, reliable sources for anything he writes, nor will he agree to follow WP:DR". I don't see any criticisms placed on DU's Talk page equivalent to the ones you have made on mine. I would have thought that accusing another editor of lying was a fairly important breach of civility. Perhaps you think otherwise. OffTheFence (talk) 12:57, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I never observed DanaUllman to lie. If you'd like to post something yourself, you can do so without my help. —Whig (talk) 16:00, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Huh? I think you have seriously dropped the plot here. It is DU that accused me of lying and which you seem to have no problem with. He said "please do not allege that my quotes above are not "verifiable" just because you personally do not seem to have a copy of the article." I'm not offended, just observing the behaviour pattern. OffTheFence (talk) 23:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with the quote you supplied. If you have a complaint, perhaps someone else might be interested. —Whig (talk) 02:03, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

You are hardly one to try to get me to do anything...

Since you have been the victim of no less than three RfCs which you have ignored, I think you need to find someone else who hasn't been as sullied as you to ask me to be more civil. Lets say someone who has no prior history with these conflicts. ScienceApologist (talk) 13:11, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Help w dilutions

Help with this,[8]if you can. Anthon01 (talk) 22:01, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

You know Filll better than I. What is he talking about? Anthon01 (talk) 07:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't want to psychoanalyze. —Whig (talk) 07:53, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Well I thought you might understand or have some inkling of his concern. Anthon01 (talk) 08:10, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I think he is unwilling to admit error, because then he might be confronted with more errors. —Whig (talk) 08:15, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Since you are both correct and you are sure you are correct, why not go ahead on that basis?--Filll (talk) 08:19, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I am simply asking you to acknowledge your misstatement. —Whig (talk) 08:20, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not allowed to disagree with you since that is uncivil. So you can assume you are correct and act accordingly.--Filll (talk) 08:28, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

It is possible to disagree civilly. —Whig (talk) 08:31, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Do whatever you want. --Filll (talk) 08:33, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Fine, okay. Please stop commenting here, in that case. We have nothing further to discuss. —Whig (talk) 08:35, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to try to move the topic back and get it back on topic. I suggested that if Filll wants to continue discussing why things are so dangerous, then he do so on user talk pages and not in the NPOV page. I will not engage him there. Anthon01 (talk) 13:09, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

There is no purpose discussing anything at all with Filll, since he makes false statements and does not care to correct them no matter what proof he is shown. —Whig (talk) 19:51, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion. I am dismayed. Anthon01 (talk) 19:52, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not dismayed, I am simply content to observe the lack of good faith that exists and not continue to engage with that person. —Whig (talk) 19:54, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I would like to complete the conversation. You input would be appreciate. I think at some point you just have to ignore what appears to be Filll's ~~baiting~~ off topic discussion. Otherwise the conversation will get diverted like it did yesterday. Anthon01 (talk) 04:02, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I will ignore him unless he makes false statements. If he makes false statements, I will tell him that he is being inaccurate. —Whig (talk) 04:06, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you can leave a short note that says "Answered on your talk page," and answer him there? Just a suggestion. Otherwise I think this will continue indefinitely. Is there a forum to handle this kind of behavior? Anthon01 (talk) 04:14, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

No, I think to go to his talk page at this point would just be treated as an attack. We could give him a notice and an opportunity to correct the record and then go to RfC, perhaps. —Whig (talk) 04:24, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I prefer the RfC2 template, by the way, it's more civil I think. —Whig (talk) 04:25, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Are you suggesting an RfC on the topic or the editor? Anthon01 (talk) 12:47, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

RfC2 would be a user RfC, if that becomes necessary to deal with ongoing disruption. —Whig (talk) 16:29, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Various substances on toast

Yeah, seems likely. I'm not sure the evidence is strong enough to make a sockpuppetry case though. It looks like Poupon might have quit Wikipedia, and these new socks are his/her revenge? Ah well, I'm just glad they finally blocked the IP! That was getting ugly for a minute! hehehe --Jaysweet (talk) 19:46, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Admin oversight

What needs deleting? Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 03:50, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Whether it needs deleting or not, I don't know for sure. [9] is an unfounded accusation of sock puppetry and purports to out a user. —Whig (talk) 03:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Dilutions

At 23:53, 5 March 2008, Vickers said, "To get a ten-fold dilution 10X you would need to add 9ml of water to 1 ml sample (10ml final)." Doesn't 9 ml dilutant to 1 ml mother tincture create 1x? Anthon01 (talk) 13:32, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes. --Filll (talk) 13:48, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Isn't his statement incorrect? Anthon01 (talk) 16:42, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

9:1 is a ten fold dilution. 99:1 is a hundred fold dilution. Homeopaths use C though (is that tincture?) and that is a different nomenclature. David D. (Talk) 16:45, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

9:1 is 1X. 10X is 9:1 repeated 10 times. Anthon01 (talk) 17:03, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, it's a different nomenclature. The homeopaths don't use dilution terminology but a counting nomenclature. David D. (Talk) 17:28, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

X here means 10, like the Roman numeral. So 10X would actually mean 10^10. C means 100, and LM means 50,000. —Whig (talk) 18:01, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

The homeopathic C, D and X scales are logarithmic scales, something like the pH scale for acidity, or the Richter scale for earthquakes, or the decibel scale for sound levels, etc. This will all be explained more carefully in the more advanced article I am writing with Peter Morrell. And the fact that so many are confused tells me that a more advanced article is needed. Even many of the sources on the internet including homeopathic sources are wrong, so we need to do this correctly and set things on the right path.--Filll (talk) 18:12, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

D and X are the same, incidentally. —Whig (talk) 18:14, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

MC

Point taken. Since it's good enough for User:Vanished user, it's good enough for MC. Dreadstar † 23:35, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

You probably shouldn't have said this, seeming to confirm it... Dreadstar † —Preceding comment was added at 00:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

But I'm not confirming anything, I don't have any knowledge of his actual identity. —Whig (talk) 00:09, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your support. You may note that ScienceApologist has continued to revert edits of both MC and TT http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mpemba_effect&diff=196470536&oldid=195705703

and http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Water&diff=194271609&oldid=194242986 The Tutor (talk) 06:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

That's very interesting. I hope you will not be discouraged and will stick around, remember that no matter what edits others make to any articles, the histories are still preserved and can be restored. —Whig (talk) 06:52, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Warning

Don't ever edit my comments again.[10] You are being disruptive. Stop now before stronger measures are needed. Jehochman ^Talk 01:01, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. Your comment was repeating an unproven sock puppet accusation and was an implicit accusation of bad faith against an editor and a named person. I hope you take strong enforcement action if you think it is correct, and we will have dispute resolution. —Whig (talk) 01:04, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Checkuser flagged the relationship as

Possible. I am citing that, nothing more. Jehochman ^Talk 01:05, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you are repeating the accusation however. Please stop, this is bordering on defamation. —Whig (talk) 01:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Retract this statement immediately. Legal threats will get you blocked per WP:NLT. Will you retract? Lawrence § t/e 21:52, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Hang on, that's not a legal threat. Whig, please go about your business and stop trying to stir up a dispute over nothing. You're being disruptive, and I really wish you would just stop so we can all get back to work. Jehochman ^Talk 21:55, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

You're right, that wasn't a legal threat. Retract your accusations of bad faith against me and we can go about our business. I am not being disruptive. —Whig (talk) 22:00, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

When you have dug your own hole, it's recommended to stop digging. You should take a break. Lawrence § t/e 22:02, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

It's not my hole, but thanks for the advice. —Whig (talk) 22:09, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll say this....

I have no idea what you guys are arguing about but if I happen to see any more veiled threats like this [11] I'll block you to prevent you from making any more. Try and cool it...that's all. RxS (talk) 18:53, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I do not wish to make any veiled threats. I have stated quite directly that I will appeal any block or ban resulting from that proceeding, and I was merely reiterating that fact. Perhaps I should have phrased myself better, and I will try to be more careful. —Whig (talk) 18:55, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

6 month topic ban on homeopathy and science articles

Sorry, Whig: This appears to be passed, starting today:

A 6-month ban on any and all interation on-Wiki, broadly interpreted, of any homeopathy or science articles, broadly interpreted. Any and all edits involving these articles, or discussions of issues with these articles, will result in escalating blocks from any non-involved admin. Simply put, that section of Wikipedia and discussion of it is off-limits to User:Whig under any username.

Please avoid those topics or discussing them in Wikipedia space, to avoid being blocked. Thank you, and good luck. Lawrence § t/e 15:28, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for informing me of your decision. I will not agree to these terms. I will give some consideration on how to proceed in the best fashion from here. —Whig (talk) 16:49, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

You are welcome to file for arbitration; however, you should consider that the result of that process may be a much stronger sanction against you than the one currently in place. There are still millions of articles that you are free to edit. Jehochman ^Talk 17:16, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not interested in your threats of further sanction since you began this proceeding as retaliation for me complaining of your behavior and requesting you to withdraw your accusation of bad faith against me. You are not an uninvolved administrator in this matter and there has been no evidence against me which is not trivially refuted and false. Moreover the terms of the homeopathy probation might give you some discretion to limit my participation in covered articles but do not extend to "all science articles" nor discussions of issues. This is a travesty and it was not a fair process. —Whig (talk) 17:19, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Naming participants for arbitration

I have never filed an arbitration case before (except by e-mail), and do not want to make mistakes that will confuse the arbitrators by failing to include the important details or going into more detail than necessary. Those who may be involved might benefit from helping to frame the presentation in advance. Presumably, I will be naming at least Jehochman and myself, along with Lawrence Cohen. I invite their participation here. Also, any other editor who has constructive advice is welcome to provide it. I am not interested in debating anything here only presenting this. —Whig (talk) 17:25, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

The arbitration clerks help parties with these details. I suggest you file a simple statement of the dispute and your request. Any procedural deficiencies will be corrected. Jehochman ^Talk 17:53, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Should I provide reasons that this ban should be overturned, or is it sufficient to ask that it be appealed for review? —Whig (talk) 17:56, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

If I were in your shoes, I would ask for the topic ban to be reviewed. It is implicit that the Committee will refactor a ban if they think it is improper. Also, you should state things in a matter of fact way, without reference to shrill or strident rhetoric. You actually do not need to name anybody except yourself. The remedy you seek is that your ban be lifted or shortened. You are not asking for sanctions against anybody else, presumably, because there are no grounds for that. Jehochman ^Talk 18:02, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Please do not tell me what there are or are not grounds for. I said that I am not interested in debating anything here. In any case, I believe the arbcom can decide what they are interested in reviewing. I merely wish to bring this matter to their attention for now and the scope can be determined later. —Whig (talk) 18:06, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

To bring this back to a constructive level: If I can simply ask them to review the topic ban, that is satisfactory as they will need to review the reasons for the topic ban in order for them to determine whether it is appropriate. Therefore I do not need to say more about the underlying issues at this time, is that fair? —Whig (talk) 18:14, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

You may not believe me, but I am trying to help you. I would let the facts speak for themselves whenever possible. Link to the discussion and say you want to appeal the result because (drop in your reasons). Jehochman ^Talk 18:50, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate the suggestion, and it is helpful. I asked Thatcher also to take a look in here, s/he may not have anything to add however. There is no great rush to file this before I have input from others than you and Lawrence Cohen, however. —Whig (talk) 18:59, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

What Jehochman said. You might want to talk to Thatcher for help. Have you and I ever interacted before this, by the way? I'm scratching my head and can't think of anything. Lawrence § t/e 17:55, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't think we've interacted before this. Thank you for the suggestion. —Whig (talk) 17:57, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Current draft

I request review of a topic ban that was imposed upon me following a discussion on WP:AN which I had initiated regarding the actions of an administrator. [12] —Whig (talk) 23:01, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

This is probably as neutral as I can make it, if the ArbCom wants to review it we can discuss the details in depth. —Whig (talk) 23:08, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll be taking an interest in this, if I have time, because I noticed this situation as it started to develop, it may have even been before the ANI report was filed. It seemed to me that, instead of a few calm words from a few wise or experienced users or administrators, gasoline was being poured on the fire. I had thought to intervene before, but these situations can get extraordinarily complex. One thing that I've seen happen more than once is that the reasons for an action can multiply like rabbits. I'll use an employment analogy. Employee A is charged with offense X. A manager fires him for that. Then it develops that X never happened. However, the manager now asserts that A didn't get along with other employees, came to work late, and, besides, was incompetent. Often the problem literally goes away because A simply finds another job, but sometimes, if A fights it, several year's salary is wasted on legal fees; and even if the company prevails (in the described circumstance that's pretty shaky), the legal fees aren't recovered. A little careful, polite, considerate handling of the situation in the first place could have avoided all that.

This comment shouldn't be construed as an opinion about who is "right." It's clear that, whatever the reason, a fair amount of administrative irritation was raised over this, and, just as I'm not thrilled when an administrator blocks someone for being rude to the administrator (as distinct from being a threat to the project), I'm also not thrilled at demands for apologies for alleged administrative incivility. Administrators shouldn't be rude, to be sure, but we have 1500 administrators, with varying degrees of skill at defusing situations, and, in my opinion, they are overworked and definitely underpaidl it seems they are burning out right and left, and as they burn out, they can get pretty testy. Administrators don't run Wikipedia, we do, and we should be considerate of them, and not expect them to be perfect.--Abd (talk) 00:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

There is no real difference between an editor and an administrator. Administrators are just editors who have been around for a while and been granted access to a few extra tools. I was a non-administrator for 2.5 years and though I did not have access to the tools, I could still get somebody blocked or get a page protected whenever necessary simply by explaining the need on the appropriate noticeboard or administrator's talk page. Power around here comes from the respect of fellow editors, not the tools. Jehochman ^Talk 00:05, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

That is all, of course, correct. However, those who do have this "power" should realize that some editors don't form those connections so easily. There are unspoken rules (or even spoken ones that some cannot constitutionally understand) that prevent some from connecting so easily. I must say that there is one situation, a blatant sock puppet or at least SPA, who has been disruptive since 2006 (first edit within minutes of registration: AfD of an obscure article that telegraphs his political agenda), I've called attention to him in numerous places, before quite a few administrators, -- or he has called attention to himself through some fairly outrageous actions -- and generally nothing happens. I find it kind of amazing, actually. I've only looked at the record in this case (Whig's topic ban) a little, and, definitely, Whig comes up as a problem. How much of this problem is purely him and how much is a result of, shall we say, defective interactions with the community, is hard to tell. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? In this case we have the vast benefit of a record that goes back to registration. I haven't looked at that yet. All I saw was a snippet, a snapshot of an interaction. Trying to form conclusions from that is like trying to judge who is right and who is wrong when a couple is arguing. At any given time, one of them can look practically insane! (or both....) In the ANI thread, a general picture was developed of a contentious editor; however, it's not clear that this picture was coming from someone truly uninvolved. As you may know Jehochman, I have some problems with Wikipedia process, it can get pretty ragged. Something is proposed, some !vote, then the proposal seems to shift, but is never formally restated, there are more !votes; are the original !votes still valid? There never is a review so that it is clear what, exactly, is being !voted on. There is a little discussion of this in my Talk today. ArbComm runs with much clearer process; but clarity of process isn't inefficient, such that it couldn't be used in lesser forums, it's actually easier and more efficient.... and less of a mob scene.--Abd (talk) 00:30, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

There are about five months of back story here, not all of which involves Jehochman. I don't think it bears further explanation here. Perhaps I should just go ahead and post the request to RfAr. —Whig (talk) 00:39, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Having been around here since at least 2004, I'm not concerned with power or prestige particularly. However, I would be willing to apologize for my strong criticisms of Jehochman, and by way of explanation I will say that I was concerned at that time for the privacy of a new user and the reputation of a named person and was trying to act swiftly to prevent the situation from developing out of control. I may have been too critical and should have been more polite in phrasing myself. —Whig (talk) 00:09, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Without reviewing the ancient history, this rings true to me. That is exactly how it looked to me. It brings something up that might merit review: one user sees (or imagines, doesn't matter) harm being done to another user by a third user, considers it urgent. What should he or she do? Here, there is a privacy issue. In the Absidy affair, there was an SSP report that connected a vanished account with a current one, without cause. I did intervene, on ANI, and the SSP report was promptly deleted. Other stuff happened later, as you may recall. But I did treat it as an emergency, and did take it to AN/I. I took some flack for that, but, in fact the administrator who generated that flack ended up apologizing.

This has all gotten very complicated, not because of the AN/I report filed by Whig, but because of the subsequent !vote on sanctions against him. Users should generally be cut quite a bit of slack in filing AN/I reports; I'm a bit disturbed by what I saw happen there in this case. I've seen plenty of AN/I reports, not solidly founded, that simply wither away. Why didn't this one? Frankly, I don't understand it yet. I'm troubled, though, about certain things. Whig makes a complaint, he is threatened as a result, that it will be treated as a personal attack if he can't back it up with diffs, and he thinks he has. Whig indicates his intention to appeal to ArbComm if the ban is determined, and it seems to me he was threatened with sanctions because of that. I'm getting that there is a Rule 0 violation here. There is an alternate explanation, though. Perhaps Whig really is a Troll, and a very skillful one. Problem is this explanation requires abandoning WP:AGF, turning his civility into an offense, a clever trick, and it seems to me that AGF should not be abandoned in some narrow, rapid-response forum like AN/I, which seems mostly designed to deal with, relatively speaking, emergencies. Given that outcome, it may indeed be necessary to go to ArbComm. On the other hand, if Whig's apology is sincere, and I recommend taking it that way, perhaps the whole process can be much less acrimonious than sometimes happens. Or perhaps it could be avoided entirely. Time to sit down again over some tea, Jehochman? It worked before. Do you take cream with your tea? Where should we sit?--Abd (talk) 00:57, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

That's mighty kind of you, Whig. you have a lot going for you. You're obviously intelligent and are able to maintain civility even in stressful situations. You are willing to forgive and to use dispute resolution.

Now, how can I help you further? My advice would be to spend a month or two editing in new areas, and generate a featured article or a couple good articles or did you knows. If you did that, it would be easy for me to go back to WP:AN and suggest that the topic ban be rescinded. Additionally, I recommend you read User:Durova/Recusal. Sometimes editors are so invested in a topic that it is better for them to avoid it. If you get away from all these conflicts and the people who are baiting you, I think it would really help. Jehochman ^Talk 01:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Whig, I think that is sincere advice from Jehochman. I've done a little review of the situations you have become involved in, and I find it difficult to untangle them. Few will have the patience for it, and when people don't have the patience for something, they make snap judgments; as you might have noticed, snap judgments don't seem to favor you much. I can't predict what will happen before ArbComm. From what I've seen so far, I can understand and sympathize with your frustration. However, this project -- like all human projects -- is a social one. That is, people work together, and people are, well, people. For better or worse. You may have all the reason in the world behind you, you may be right as rain, and yet, if your communication doesn't effectively connect with people, they won't understand you. ArbComm has a better process, you might stand a better chance there, but I wouldn't bet on it. They are people too. Rub them the wrong way, they won't hear a word you say. I don't know if you read the essay I cited above, Rule 0. It can be extraordinarily frustrating to be a Rule 0 violator, for nobody will tell you exactly what you are doing wrong. Instead, they will accuse you of stuff you know isn't true (as well as anything true they can dredge up). If you prove that they are wrong, they will call you contentious. If you stand up for your rights, you will be considered disruptive. I'd suggest you back up and consider why you are here. This is actually, for some of us, a very difficult environment. It's rife with contradictions, rules that are widely ignored, including very important rules such as WP:AGF. However, AGF bucks human nature. When we don't understand others, we suspect them of being up to no good; there are some very good reasons for this trait. However, it's also a killer. In my opinion, if this community doesn't find a way to more seriously enforce WP:AGF, it's going to die. Part of the problem, though, is that "enforce" cannot mean coerce. An assumption of good faith cannot be coerced; what happens if we try is that all we manage to enforce is pretense. And pretense cannot be maintained, not for long. There is another way, but it is going to take some major restructuring, not of the rules and policies, which are already amazingly good, for the most part, but in how we approach them and work with them.

Looking at your block log, I see you were twice blocked by "Vanished user," Took a little digging to find the actual name. Looks to me like you've been screwed over. If you do go to ArbComm, I'll try to help, because I think that it's important to see and name the rampant AGF failure that I think is tearing this place apart. Indeed, we need good processes that do try to resolve disputes instead of deciding who the malfactor is and punishing the miscreant.--Abd (talk) 03:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. I did read your essay. I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but appreciate the analysis. This is not a personal matter for me, at all. Rather, my primary concern is with NPOV. My involvement in this issue began because I perceived a serious NPOV conflict being suppressed. I have been willing to sacrifice a good bit of my own time and risk my reputation in behalf of this principle. However, I recognize that sometimes it helps to take a break. —Whig (talk) 03:31, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

While I am glad that we can be civil and perhaps even friendly, that in no way indicates that I have reconsidered my opinion of the ban or the charges that were made against me. You have not retracted your accusation of bad faith against me, and there is still an evident need for dispute resolution. —Whig (talk) 01:43, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Upon reflection, I do not feel that you have acted in bad faith. You clearly care about the project and are doing what you think is right. However, I think you need to better understand how others perceive (or misperceive) your actions, and make adjustments to promote cooperation and minimize conflict. Jehochman ^Talk 02:04, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion regarding the appeal of community sanctions

See Wikipedia talk: Requests for arbitration#Suggestion regarding the appeal of community sanctions for a thread I have initiated about making it easy for people to appeal community sanctions. Jehochman ^Talk 01:30, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

How about I'll sit that discussion out and watch for a day or so, and if there is a consensus on how I should proceed then I will follow that. —Whig (talk) 01:45, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that is a very good idea, Whig. The question Jehochman raises is important and difficult, and has implications going far beyond your particular circumstances. Procedural fairness requires that you know the procedures and requirements before you act, and so your caution is sensible and appropriate. However, I suspect that the question Jehochman raises will take more than a day or two to resolve, and will likely involve off-wiki email discussion amongst ArbCom. I could be wrong, of course. :) Jay*Jay (talk) 01:55, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

How about I'll wait a day or two and if it looks like it makes sense to wait longer, I may decide to do so? :) —Whig (talk) 02:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

It is, of course, your decision. In fact, I would have no problem with you participating the discussion, but I do strongly believe that the discussion needs to be directed towards the general issue that needs addressing, and not to your particular circumstance. There is real danger of such appeals becoming war grounds - a danger I believe is particularly high in your case, given the strong feelings on both sides in areas you have been contributing - and that is not good for the Committee or for the contributors. The danger may be even higher following any community sanction being imposed shortly after the MM case closes. In my view, it is far better for ArbCom to carefully consider the implications of the approach adopted than to adopt a procedure quickly and then try to modify it on the fly if a war breaks out. Jay*Jay (talk) 02:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

If the community would like to establish a procedure that helps make things more orderly then all to the good, but the arbitration committee should be fully competent to establish an appropriate scope of review on their own, I think they are very cautious about the interests of the community and would not act to jeopardize it. —Whig (talk) 02:35, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Whig, do you feel that the process was unfair? If so, explain your reasoning and if it makes sense, I will request that this be looked at again. Is there any other remedy that you would suggest that might help alleviate the constant battling? Jehochman ^Talk 02:15, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I do feel the process was unfair insofar as the diffs that were presented against me were falsely construed and anything I said was disregarded. I do not think that I require a remedy nor do I think I am doing something wrong by insisting that an NPOV dispute be respected. There are participants in the Homeopathy discussion who fabricate and do not provide sources, they are allowed to accuse others of bad faith and engage in original synthesis in the article but the admins do nothing. I am not withdrawing my concern with this area of Wikipedia. Therefore, I do not think there is much to be done but to proceed with an appeal, however it will be best if we can make it a civil and friendly one. —Whig (talk) 02:33, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I have requested that expedited appeals be allowed. Do you want to spend two months at arbitration waiting for a decision, or would have rather get an answer in two days, most likely. The situation around homeopathy is still poisonous, and I am trying to separate the incorrigible from the otherwise good editors who fall victim to baiting. In any case, I recommend you stay out of the "hot zone" for a little while, even if your ban is lifted. Jehochman ^Talk 02:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Like I said, I'm going to sit on the sidelines for a day or two and see what procedure seems to be most appropriate, or whether I should wait longer or follow an expedited approach. I'm not interested in making things more complicated than they need to be, but I'm not going to sit out the discussion for six months unless the arbitration committee thinks that I've done something to deserve that. That doesn't mean I need to rush back in to the "hot zone" though. I realize that even an expedited appeal is going to take some time, and the situation may change between now and whenever this process is completed. —Whig (talk) 02:49, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

see [13]. I have opened a pre-arbitration page in my user space. Please read it, and, if you wish to see this experimental process proceed, state a complaint or issue to be considered in the place noted for that. You will need to identify someone to second the "motion." I've seen enough to, without having come to any conclusions, consider the issue worth examining; however, I'm recusing myself, you will have to find someone else. The second will be consenting to the proposition that the situation is worth careful consideration, not necessarily to any particular outcome. Anyone else reading this may also list themselves as interested parties; however, they should not edit the page until a "petition" has been made and seconded and I have opened up with process for the gathering of evidence and then for deliberation.--Abd (talk) 13:32, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for setting this up. I've had a look and it may be worth a try, there are some things that may need to be clarified and I'm not sure how well this will work in practice. The very ad-hoc nature of it makes it less likely of success in my opinion, the fact that this is carrying on in user talk space will probably cause it to be ignored by all but the very committed (and some of those who want to ban me from Wikipedia have been very committed to doing so over many months now), while those who may support me may not feel confident that they can express themselves with safety in this forum free of retaliation. —Whig (talk) 16:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I am probably most inclined to e-mail the ArbCom, to invite them to review the topic ban and the discussion leading up to it and determine what course of action is best, whether they wish to handle this in private or by opening a public arbitration case. I feel that the arbitration committee has the best interests of the community at heart and will make a proper determination with a minimum of disruption. I am concerned that any user space process will not be able to be done in a way that avoids the problems that I have identified above. I'm still open to suggestions however, and can wait a bit longer to hear other ideas. —Whig (talk) 17:22, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Lots of things need to be clarified! Apparently you have never participated in an Arbitration, it can be exhausting. It brings all kinds of creatures out of the woodwork. For starters, everyone you have ever offended might show up. That may still happen with this ad-hoc process, but consider this:

This is happening in my user space. I can delete any of it. It will still be in History, but 3RR rule does not apply to user space (for the user whose space it is).
This happens in phases. The first phase -- after it's seconded -- is evidence gathering. You will need to do this for Arbitration anyway, so if, at any time, you aren't satisfied with how this is going, you can still go to ArbComm and you will have done your homework, and, quite possibly, with the help of some others.
This isn't an RFC. The goal here is to find consensus among a self-defined set of interested parties. Those "enemies" above may join this, if they wish, but they -- and you -- will be expected to observe decorum. There really isn't much room for disagreement in the first phase. The diff content will be summarized, but in standard NPOV fashion: if disputes appear about that, I will rule quickly.
Nothing in this process binds the participants unless the *facts* bind them. I do not expect any sanctions to result from this process; but it might uncover facts that suggest sanctions to others; because this is ad-hoc process, if anyone not participating is to be sanctioned, silence here will not be presumed to be a lack of defense. Facts and statements made here *might* be used later in an Arbitration, but the appropriateness of that will be decided at the time.
I don't see that you have anything to lose by trying this. To get support from ArbComm, you will have to take the first steps involved here, and probably most of the rest, anyway.
I'm trying to make this process more efficient and more likely to result in consensus. As I mentioned, I think this particular case may be a good test, because of your civility. This could work with uncivil participants, but it's more likely to fail to find consensus; on the other hand, in later process, that incivility will surely be noted, and is often a major factor in ArbComm decisions.
Consider this as an opportunity to prepare and test an ArbComm presentation, before actually filing. It need not take long. And if it works, well, we just saved ArbComm and the community a big hassle. If not, this is not going to make things worse. At least I'll be surprised if it does.

--Abd (talk) 18:35, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I see that you are trying to make a good suggestion here and I'd like to work with you. Let's see if once a few things are clarified, whether it makes sense to proceed this way. I don't mind discussing alternatives before choosing the way to go. I'd like to hear some other opinions of this from people that might be or become involved in this. Rather than seeking out a second later, there should be a second before even going into this process that agrees this is a good way forward. As far as the other alternative of e-mailing ArbCom, they give plenty of time and opportunity to prepare evidence if they think a public case is needed. I don't know what is gained by preparing evidence that might not interest them in advance. To be very blunt, consider the possibility that my topic ban was well justified by the evidence and the discussion preceding it, then the ArbCom would presumably look at it and say so and reject an appeal anyhow; if otherwise, then why should it be upon me to go looking for a second to pursue an experimental alternative? —Whig (talk) 19:02, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Is there a second?

If there is a second for the approach that Abd suggests, someone please let me know in the next 24 hours. That should give enough time to let us know if there's even anyone else interested in this approach. —Whig (talk) 22:13, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, this depends on how many people are either reading your Talk page or perhaps mine or following your or my contributions. Small group, perhaps. Is there nobody who has supported you in the past? In any case, without a statement of the issue to be considered, what do you expect? There is something above, you could just copy it to the pre-arbitration page. Is it sufficient to convince anyone to get involved? If not, what makes you think that it will be any different with ArbComm? Yes, they are far more careful in their decisions, but they depend on the parties and the interested community to do the investigation, compile the evidence, make arguments, and to suggest remedies. If you go to ArbComm, it could be difficult to try anything else. You may have noticed that your stated intention to appeal was used against you. That's not against the "rules," but it can appear that the person isn't willing to listen to what others are saying, is digging in his heels. As I've said, and as I've seen in over twenty years of online conferencing, it can seem terribly unfair. I'm suggesting that we -- i.e., anyone sufficiently interested to participate in a nonbinding but formal facilitated inquiry -- explore what happened. The second, you know, might come from Jehochman, it would not surprise me. Consider this from above:

He is suggesting that you do, more or less, what I've suggested that you do, only I'm suggesting that you do it before what might be called a "facilitator." It doesn't have to be me, I'm just here volunteering and I have a sense of how to go about it. If you plan to "appeal," as you have stated, you'll have to do the writing anyway. It seems you are waiting for a second when you have not, clearly, in a place designed for it, made the "motion" to be seconded, just a vague appeal to

ArbComm generally doesn't like to deal with cases that have not exhausted "lower courts." Which includes ad-hoc process like what I've suggested, starting with direct communication, attempting to find some mediator, and a whole panalopy of options. Prior attempts to resolve the dispute will be considered; if they haven't been made with sufficient effort, ArbComm is likely to deny the case, and if that happens, you are pretty much stuck with the status quo. One of the problems is that it seems, from what happened at ANI, that you have attracted enough enmity or dislike for your editing that you aren't doing well in the standard procedures, like RFCs. That can happen because of POV conflicts, or it can happen because an editor is contentious, or both. I'm suggesting an alternate forum because we might be able to tease all this out; then, even if we can't come to consensus in this ad-hoc process, there will then be a clear basis for going to ArbComm, I expect, if anyone is still interested in that. But, enough. I'm not going to waste more time trying to convince you, if what I've written isn't enough, maybe it is, indeed, a bad idea, at least in this case. --Abd (talk) 02:04, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

As I said, I'm not convinced by your proposal, but I will await a second to discuss it further. —Whig (talk) 02:17, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

The time having elapsed without a second for the alternative dispute resolution proposal, I have sent my appeal by e-mail. —Whig (talk) 22:32, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Since I am not blocked from editing, I have been told that it is appropriate to present my appeal on Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration. —Whig (talk) 16:45, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I have now done so here. —Whig (talk) 17:21, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

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