Talk:Western Massachusetts

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[edit] Steve Herrell, ice cream, and western Mass

"The concept of mixing candy, nuts, and crushed cookies, and other stuff into ice cream was invented by Steve Herrell, whose current ice cream shop, Herrell's, is in Northampton"

Seeing as how there are Herrell's ice cream stores in Cambridge and Boston as well as Northampton, what makes this a fact about Western Mass? AJD 09:25, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

The statement, as written, is blattantly bogus anyway. Much as I liked Steve's Ice Cream at Porter Square, I'm pretty sure that Maple Walnut and Butter Pecan ice crema existed long before Steve invented "the concept of mixing ... nuts" into ice cream.
I'll take the heat for removing the statament.
Atlant 12:17, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Actually the whole story is that Steve Herrell's first ice cream shop was Steve's Ice Cream in Boston in 1973. He sold this shop in 1977. In 1980 he founded Herrell's Ice Cream in Northampton, which now has opened shops near Boston. Steve Herrell was the first person to mix Heath Bars into Ice Cream and this idea spread across the Country. It isn't clear from what is written if they started at Steve's or Herrell's. The point being is the inventor of this idea is a Western Mass figure, as that is where his home store and office is located, in Northampton MA.

Noldrin 9:25, 06 September 2005
Mixins started at the original Steve's Ice Cream in Somerville, if the location he started it was in question. Like with the trademark issues that forced Herrell to change the name of the Northampton shop from "Steve Herrell's" to "Herrell's", he had to change the name of the technique. RGTraynor 03:13, September 7, 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps a statement such as "Steve Herrell, The Inventor of Mixins, second ice cream chain was started in and is based out of Northampton" would be appropiate. Noldrin 9:53, 07 September 2005

[edit] Secession?

I think the part about Western Massachusetts residents being cynical about Boston and periodically calling for secession needs a reference. 24.60.184.196 20:24, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

I reversed the removal of the Personality section. It's traditionally polite to wait a week before deleting a whole section like that. Also, it would be good to provide contrary evidence that shows that the section is invalid, especially because the Talk discussion only referenced the first sentence, not the whole section. Please feel free to get a no-cost membership at Wikipedia, it makes it easier for editors to communicate. :)
Citations:
  1. [1] Secession group in Chicopee.
  2. [2] Column in an MIT paper ([http://www-tech.mit.edu/ The Tech) talking about differences between eastern and western Massachusetts.
  3. [3] Transcript of a meeting from MassINC ([4]) regarding the east/west divide in Massachusetts.
  4. The "Berkshire Freedom Coalition" is referenced in many web directories as a Western Mass. secession group. Their website [5] appears to be defunct, though.
  5. [6] Mass Pike article from South Coast Today mentions a revolt by drivers from western Massachusetts against turnpike policies.\
  6. [7] Article in the Boston Globe talking about Alabama road signs installed in the western town of Easthampton.
The distrust we're talking about goes back over 300 years. In 1787, this divide led to open rebellion and bloodshed. It's very real and flares up any time there's an economic downturn or some major project that is perceived as stealing funds from the western part of the state.
I apologize for not waiting a week. However, your assertion that MANY people take a cynical attitude toward Boston is blatantly taking a point of view. The citations you give are from opinion pieces, not objective news pieces. And the statement that people oppose Wal-Mart hardly seems borne out by the proliferation of both Wal-Mart and Target in places like, say, the Route 9 corridor in Hadley, Mass. The Alabama road sign incident was a simple mistake not a statement about secession or a statement against Boston. And, as you yourself point out the Berkshire Freedom coalition is now defunction. I have lived in Western Mass. for many years and have never heard any mention of sececssion. There is no "revolt" by Turnpike drivers. Your reference number #5 doesn't mention this at all. What "revolt" are you talking about? #5 seems to imply a positive thing for Westgern Mass. Also your reference # 1 goes nowhere. Your characterization of the "Personality of Western Mass." is way off and not representative of a neutral point of view. A vast region like Western Massachusetts does not have a "Personality." I believe you are expanding on stereotypes, not presenting fact.
I've also tagged this article for POV with the aim of getting some more people involved in the discussion. 24.60.184.196 11:27, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
No big deal. I would encourage you to get a login, it's free.
Considering that we are discussing the opinions of the locals, opinion pieces are a valid indicator that such an opinion exists. The opinion clearly exists so the question becomes, 'is the sentence FACTUALLY accurate'?:
"Many residents of Western Massachusetts take a cynical attitude towards Boston -- the state's capital and largest city -- and talk of secession appears periodically."
The word "many" means "a large, indefinite number" according to the American Heritage Dictionary. While the word can sometimes be interpreted as meaning a majority, that is not implied by the text of the sentence. Clearly, an anti-Boston sentiment exists in some "large, indefinite" portion of the populace:
  1. Reference #3 above involves discussions amongst academics and political leaders talking about said divide.
  2. Bay State's east, west look for ways to repair the divide - AP article in South Coast Today talking about the east/west divide in Massachusetts and hopes to repair the split.
  3. Reference #5 above states:

    Massachusetts' Fast Lane system, which has become a target for Turnpike critics, got off to a slow start with massive traffic jams, hefty losses in toll revenues and police overtime, and a revolt by western Massachusetts drivers that forced the Pike to provide them with more than $517,000 in free transponders.

    (Emphasis mine) Clearly, they're talking about a political backlash, not an armed uprising.
  4. Berkshire Town Sends Giant Ball of Cheese to Washington A historical article reinforcing the historical origins of the divide.
  5. shaysridesagain.org An anti-corporate, pro-local governance group in Western Massachusetts harkening back to the Shays Rebellion.
  6. Local Reps Distrust UMass Trustees Article in the Valley Advocate talking about disempowerment on the UMass board: "What's eating at legislators like Kulik and Story is the fact that right now, there are no residents of western Massachusetts on the board..."
The mere existence of pro-secession websites indicates that some "talk of secession" exists, and the disappearance of one of those sites reinforces the "periodic" nature of the discussion.
The anti-WalMart sentiment point is neither supported nor refuted by the existence of WalMarts in the region. WalMart is infamous for moving into areas over the objection of the local residents. This is how they got into Vermont as well. Again, I'm not saying that EVERYONE hates WalMart... heck, I used to work at the one in Hadley, but I have been aware of the controversy. The debate's STILL going on in Greenfield, more than a decade later, if you can believe it.
Anyway, my supper is ready, so I'm going to wrap up. The point is that the sentence is FACTUALLY correct. Can it be improved and made less ambiguous? Of course, but I don't believe that any of the facts in that section are wrong. I agree that "personality" isn't the best title for the topics covered, maybe "political climate" would serve better?
Oh, just to be clear, I didn't write the article, nor even the whole section. I simply tweak it and clarify, like most editors.
BTW, I have also lived in the area for years. I'd really like to avoid trying to figure out whose blood is bluer. That said, I'm not entirely sure how you could have missed all the anti-Boston sentiment. :) - Dunkelza 19:46 September 6, 2005 (EDT)
I also have lived in Western Mass for years, and while many people (disclaimer: including myself) DO have a distrust of Boston politics, any talk I've heard of secession (which hasn't been much) has always been clearly tongue-in-cheek ("And we can have our own currency!"). I would just word it "Many residents of Western Massachusetts take a cynical attitude towards Boston -- the state's capital and largest city." and keep it at that. Stev0 05:34, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I remember several years ago that one of the morning DJ's on 99.3 would mention that Western Mass should split off from rest of the State on air back and at one point in 2002 asked on air Gubernatorial Candidate Shannon O'Brien what she thought of the idea. She's said something to the effect that while the idea tends gets mentioned over the years and can sound tempting, that the best realistic solution is push for a government the works for all the people, rather than going it alone. - Noldrin 21:06 September 7, 2005 (EDT)

I agree with Stev0; being a Boston native who lived in the Valley for 12 years, it's true that 'secession' is airy nonsense that's either tongue-in-cheek or spoken by the occasional nutcase, and not worth mentioning. It's also true that there is profound and widespread anti-Boston sentiment, possibly having something to do with the sheer indifference towards western MA in this neck of the woods, and I seriously wonder as to the bonafides of anyone claiming to be a Valley native and unaware of it. RGTraynor 12:08, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Would anyone object if I edited the sentence in question to what I wrote above? Stev0 20:16, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
While part of me wants to mention Piss in the Quabbin Day, I agree that your sentence is probably best. Rhobite 21:02, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
It's accurate and reasonably neutral, Stev0, go for it. RGTraynor 21:21, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
OK, I took out the controversial phrase. I'd keep the Wal-Mart one in there because while there are Wal-Marts in Northampton and Hadley (and they both do good business), there are also a number of "Mall Wart" and "Wal-Mart: Your low wage leader. Every day." bumper stickers seen locally. Can we take out the Controversy tag now? Stev0 22:57, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm all for leaving in the Wal-Mart mention and removing the POV tag. Rhobite 00:00, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
OK, I took out the POV tag. Actually, in the sentence I'd like to say something of WHY people in Western Mass are cynical about Boston ("Bostonians think the state ends at route 495"), but can't think of a non-POV way to say it. Stev0 16:02, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
It's absolutely true, but I agree it's hard. I'd go with something like this: "The widespread belief amongst Western Massachusetts residents -- fuelled by incidents such as the former state House Speaker use of parliamentary rules to deny Northampton an election to fill a vacant House seat -- is that Bostonians little know nor care about their part of the state." Heck, I'll put that in myself. RGTraynor 23:46, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Two points for discussion and editing or edition by someone more knowledgeable than I on this format. 1.) As a longtime small business person in the Berkshires I must disagree with Western Mass being "a haven for small business". I have numerous items that can be cited but it is not universally true and does not meet the standards I have found in the rest of this article or other areas on this website. 2.) The difference in dialect, accents, speech between someone from Plymouth (my dad) and someone from North Adams (me)is worth mentioning. Once one gets past “Woostah”, spelt Worcester but known as Wooster to the rest of the country, there is a difference in many things.

[edit] Twin Cities

I am a native of Westfield, my father's family is from Hartford. In all my life I have never heard of Springfield and Hartford referred to as Twin Cities. Could someone please tell me the root of that concept? Nepal Tree

Probably that they're the two largest cities in western New England and a half hour apart. That being said, this whole "Twin City" notion's a bit of a crock. RGTraynor 06:46, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
I never heard of them called Twin Cities either. The closest I've heard is Bradley Airport being called the Hartford/Springfield airport. Stev0 06:57, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure where that came from either. It might be something about Hartford and Springfield trying to cooperate economically, like that commuter rail thing or something. We can take it out. --Dunkelza 17:15, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Personality section

As of this version, [8], on October 5, 2006 it says:

Many residents of Western Massachusetts take a cynical attitude towards Boston, the state's capital and largest city. The widespread belief -- fueled by incidents such as the former state House Speaker's use of parliamentary rules to deny Northampton an election to fill a vacant House seat -- is that Bostonians little know nor care about their part of the state.

It's worth stating which State House speaker, and what departing representative caused the vacancy, and when this occurred. Best of all it is desirable to say why the claimed event occurred, and link it to the fact that the region contains only one-eighth of the Commonwealth's population. That's actually interesting and says something about why there is distrust of Boston. As it stands, the statement is presently unsupported story-telling.

Re-opening the "cynical attitude" discussion, I think there's more power in saying critical, instead of cynical and that term would include more than a modest grumpy fraction of the Western Massachusetts population. Once again, linking it with the fact that there's not much leverage in having 20-odd representatives in a 160-representative house for which the ruling party has a veto-overriding authority makes a difference, and generates real understanding. Yellowdesk 01:19, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I added a couple of the more famous events in the history of Boston saying "Screw you" to Western Massachusetts. I could have added more (I was tempted to add the resentment of Western Mass of taxing the entire state to pay for Boston's "Big Dig"). While these events are certainly critical of Boston's thinking, I think cynical better describes the mood - except for Shay's Rebellion, no one ever really did more than just say "we don't like this," to which Boston responded with either, "awww, isn't that cute?" or "did someone just say something?" Stev0 01:59, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
That's something. I think it's really difficult to write a section with this kind of angle, and have it responsibly represent some 650,000 people. And generate understandiing as well. It's also difficult to defend it from criticism; basically the angle or topic would merit a whole article on its own. The section is lacking in context explaining what led up to the events, and how disaffection could not be remedied by some loyal opposition. For example, it's ahistorcal in not explaining what Shay's beef was, and what the consequences of it were (ah...a strong new Federal goverment put forward by an elite with a lot to be concerned about). On the corporate front, some in Greenfield would be delighted if some corporations were a little more interested in the area, like the long ago absorbed Millers Falls Tool Co, or the deflated Greenfield Tap and Die, or Bendix, Kollmorgon, or General Electric, and so on. There's a lot going on that's tough to characterize. One could call it yankee independance, if there were more yankees. Perhaps even worse, the views are shared statewide, in kind with people from the outer Cape, and Islands, from New Bedford, or from Lowell, Lawrence, and mid-Worcester country, or in Essex county in the northeast, and even in sections of Boston itself, which all makes it hard to distinguish from the supposedly unique Western Massachusetts sentiment. Yellowdesk 09:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
While your average Bostonian thinks the border of the state is Route 93, they all know where the Cape and the Islands are, especially on a weekend in the summer. Four out of five Bostonians could easily point to Plymouth, Lowell, or Worcester on a map; however, since Western Mass is the furthest geographically, probably one Bostonian in 10 could point to Springfield on a map, or is even aware there's such a city in their state. In other words, Western Mass feels the brunt of Boston's self-absorbed nature the most.
A personal anecdote I think demonstrates this best. I live in Western Mass, and have a good friend who lives in Boston. Her job takes her to remote third-world villages in Africa and in the middle of the jungle in Central America. These are places no roads go, or ever will go. Yet she refuses to visit me in Western Mass because "it's too difficult to get to." Stev0 14:16, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link spam?

Why accept the "classifieds" but not the business directory link? - Denimadept 15:11, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

And why is the Western Mass Web Guide acceptable? Dragon Directories 17:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

You're right. I've removed those too. AJD 18:49, 12 September 2007 (UTC)