Talk:Welsh Marches

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[edit] Maps needed

Someone really needs to make a map for this page!!! The descriptions are too vague. SKC

[edit] Move Marcher

Please can someone provide a dictionary reference to the current use of Marcher in this context - as opposed to the regular word Marches. I can find it in my Shorter Oxford English Dictionary as an obsolete term from Middle English only. The actual word described in this article is (March pl:) Marches. Ian Cairns 16:45, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I concur. A better title would be Welsh Marches. --Wetman 03:44, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] From Marcher

The article Marcher refers to the Welsh Marches and should be renamed accordingly. Marcher is used in conjunction with Lords as in Marcher Lords. There is already a redirect in place for this - from Marcher Lords to Earl of March. Ian Cairns 09:56, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Move request

(from WP:RM)

[edit] Marcher → Welsh Marches

  • The article Marcher started off as a discussion on the Earls of March, which is now properly contained within the Earl of March article. The remaining Marcher article simply refers to the Welsh Marches (which is a redirect to Marcher) and should be renamed accordingly. Ian Cairns 11:19, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • Moved from WP:CSD. Sounds like a good move to me. Noel (talk) 15:35, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Not Wales?

From a Welsh history point of view, much of this seems wide of the mark, and the sourcing seems limited. It says The term "marches" is not properly applied within Wales itself, where tribal affiliations traditionally gave freer range of action to local leaders. Well, improper or not, it can be, and is used within Wales. In addition to Monmouthshire mentioned, the "March" as understood prior to the Act of Union included Brecon, Radnor, Montgomery, Denbigh, Pembroke, and part of Carmarthen - more than half of Wales. The lords in these areas claimed and exercised essentially the same rights as other Lords Marcher. See "Hanes Cymru", or pretty well any other Welsh history text. I'll modify the article to this effect unless persuaded not to! LinguisticDemographer 12:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

The article leader now drives a coach and horses through the statement that Marches is "not properly applied within Wales itself". Since there has been no counter-argument, and no citation has been supplied, I am deleting the statement. . . .LinguisticDemographer 14:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

The Marches in the Medieval period were the area of Wales that was subject to the jursidiction of Marcher lords, that is all of Wales except the principality of Wales, the area of north and west Wales conquered from the last sovereign Prince of Wales in 1282. It included some border areas that were incorporated into English counties in 1536. From 1536 until the Interregnum, the Council of Wales also had jurisdiction over Shropshire, Worcestershire, and Herefordshire. I am not clear as to whether Cheshire was included, but suspect not as it was a County Palatinate with its own unique local authroities. Modern usage has thus tended to refer to those parts of England nearest Wales, such as Shropshire and Herefordshire.
I would suggest that the present article should be altered to being a general one covering all these concepts of what the March is (or was). The detailed section on the jursidiction of medieval Marcher lord is duplicated in that article (which is however rather less good). I would suggest that the detailed medieval material should be merged into the marcher lord article, leaving a summary here (and a "main" template, linking it). However, we also need a List of Marcher lordships and an article on each of them. Comments please. Peterkingiron (talk) 21:04, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I have undertaken the merge that I proposed above. Peterkingiron (talk) 11:44, 8 April 2008 (UTC)