Talk:War against Islam

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[edit] Bad citations, unsubstantiated facts, POV

Many of the complaints made by this anon are highly questionable. And the tags require footnotes for very basic facts. At this level every sentence would require several footnotes.
What the tags require are citations of reliable sources, which is a basic requirement for Wikipedia articles. Don't worry that there might be too many citations -
Excuse me if I do worry. Digging up cites takes time, and knowning that someone can peppering an article with demands for citations to sabotage that article. I put it to you that it is downright ignorant to demand proof that the leader of the only successful Islamic revolution (Khomeini) the intellectual leader of the Sunni Islamist movemnet (Qutb) are leading Islamists. --BoogaLouie 15:27, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Calm down. I'm not trying to sabotage your article, in fact, I think that a well written article with good citations would be a great thing. And I didn't demand proof that those two individuals are leading Islamists; maybe you misunderstood the reason for my tagging one particular part of the article. If you think I really did make a mistake with some particular tag, then just say so. And yes, I agree that good research takes time - at no point have I demanded instant action, but POV and non-cited parts of the article can (and should be) marked as such. 86.157.4.96 16:48, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
see, for example the global warming article which has upto 4 citations for a single statement, and almost 100 citations in total. The more reliable citations there are, the better, but you must use reliable sources, not blogs and random web pages. 86.157.4.96 00:09, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Can you explain why you have two tags on this sentence:
The phrase or similar phrases have been used by some Muslims[who?], particularly Islamists[who?],
when the article goes on to quote three very promenent Islamists at length? Is there any question who the Islamists are? If not how are these weasal words? --BoogaLouie 15:12, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
BTW, try logging in. ---BoogaLouie 15:12, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
In general, you shouldn't use a qualifier for a sentence when a more specific qualifier, that is also true, exists. Instead of saying "Some people", say who the people actually are. If it is a particular group (say, Al Qaeda) then name them. If it is the majority of Muslims, then say so (of course, you'll need to cite a reliable source). The problem with the word "some" is that it tells us nothing. Consider "some Americans have been to the moon". Why not just say "Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong have been to the moon"? What do you gain by being less specific? 86.157.4.96 16:48, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Is there anything wrong with something like: "Leading Islamists Ayatollah Khomeini, Sayyid Qutb, and Osama bin Laden have written and spoken about the alleged war..." ? 86.157.4.96 17:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

"The phrase is used by some Muslims ... and leftists" - citation for leftists? This may also be undue weight - how many Muslims use this phrase? One? Two? 100%?

"Alleged scriptural evidence for the existence of the alleged war is found in ahadith" - According to who? Looks like POV.

kindly look at the footnote. Cook, Understanding Jihad (2005), p.143 --BoogaLouie 19:41, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
If Cook is the only person who thinks this, then say so. If others agree with him, then say who they are. If it's a generally held opinion, then cite the research that says so. 86.157.4.96 00:09, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

'Evidence of the strength of the belief.. question: do you believe the United States seeks to “weaken and divide the Islamic world?”' - clear POV. The US is seen as divisive in international politics; often picking one side over another to support. This doesn't say anything about the level of belief in a "War against Islam"

This was a survey taken by a reputable company. POV? of course they are asking for POV, its a survey of peoples opinions --BoogaLouie 19:41, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
The repute of the company and the POV of the question is not at issue, the use of it as evidence of general Islamic belief in a "War on Islam" is. Do you not see a difference between the statement "the US seeks to weaken and divide the Islamic world" and the statement "the US is waging a campaign to annihilate Islam"? The first one was the actual question of the survey, the second is worded from the opening paragraph of this article. You are using the former to support the latter, but they are very different statements.86.157.4.96 00:09, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

"Muslim children could be seen wearing Osama bin Laden T-shirts" Again, this doesn't say anything about the level of belief in a "War against Islam" which is what the paragraph is arguing.

Also "..in celebration of his attack" - how can you possibly know what motivated them to wear those T-shirts? The statement is POV.

There are numerous grammar, spelling and other problems with this article, some of them are ridiculously obvious e.g. "On September 11, 1983, the king of Poland began the Battle of Vienna".

"Defense of the idea that a war against Islam exists" - this whole section lends too much weight to a few right-wing evangelical Christians. A few "Statements portraying Islam as a destructive ideology" is not in any kind of way evidence that there actually is a "War against Islam".

re cartoons - Socialist Worker is a POV un-reliable source. You can say "the International Socialist Organisation believe this..." but you can't use it as a citation for a general statement. The other citation (news24) reports that one editor said it was a conspiracy (not a war). In this case, report that it is the view of one editor, not a general finding.

"Proponents of this view often consider.." - again, this cites a single opinion piece from a Jordanian newspaper. It would be more accurate to say "John V. Whitbeck thinks that..." unless you can show that this is a generally held opinion.

"Alleged conspiracies against Islam sometimes involve other Muslims who are accused of being appostates" - this whole paragraph is only supported by a single citation from some South African blog. Not an acceptable source.

"Some critics of Islam believe that such a war is justified as self-defence" - again, a general statement is made, with the only supporting citation being some guy's blog.

86.157.4.96 09:24, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Terminology

There have been understandable objections that many of the sources don't use the word "War on Islam" (note, "on" can be substituted by "against"). However, not all sources will use the word. Some will use the word "Attack on Islam", others will use "crusade against Islam". Bless sins 20:49, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I am removing the delte tag since there is not a lot of original research left on the page.Bless sins 21:56, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Good work! I did some spelling and grammar fixes.
—-- That Guy, From That Show! (esperanza) 2006-05-14 03:16


Made a few changes. If there is a “War on Islam”, that is a matter of opinion. Nations fighting the “War on Terrorism” have not declared a war on Islam and just because Ann Coulter may not like Islam, she does not speak for either US policy or the west in general. So the “War on Islam”, imo, should be referred to as an alleged war. Also, objections to, or use of, the term “War on Islam” does not make one hostile to, or sympathetic to, Islam. Added a link to Islamofascism as it seem to come up in heated (and biased…on all sides) ‘debates’ on political Islam and the ‘war on terrorism’. Chwyatt 11:24, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, this article is not abuot "criticism" of Muslims rather hostility to Muslims. The persons noted here don't criticize "Islamic extremism", rather they attack Islam as a whole. The war on terrorism and on islam are two different things. I agree we should move this to "Alleged..."Bless sins 13:44, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Change name to War Against Islam

This seems less ambiguous and more widely used. Any objections? --BoogaLouie 17:56, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

‘War on…’ or ‘War against…’, either is fine by me. So long as the article stresses that this is a perceived and alleged ‘war’ than an actual war, then either is fine. Chwyatt 07:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Please make it "War against Islam" rather than "War Against Islam". Other than that it is fine by me.Bless sins 16:02, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Edits

Lots of POV on this page, a recent edit was made that added 3 paragraphs of text citing one historian (ref'd as historians). Removed, perhaps can be added in with less talk of "ignorance"? BananaFiend (talk) 11:30, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah right. Just because I quoted only one historian doesn't mean there is only one historian. You can go and check out pages on Wikipedia itself. Pages like Medieval christian view of Muhammad have numerous citations and references. It appears to me you are being partial and biased - like those guys mentioned. What I quoted was a product of actual research - unlike much of the page and ironically, it is the part that is targeted - tells me something about people like you. You are a vandalist, man. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xe Cahzytr Ryz (talk • contribs) 11:52, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
You quoted only one historian, and said "historians". I note now that you have added in multiple citations (3 for 1 page, and all 5 falling within a few pages). Note that I have not reverted these changes. It would still be better if you could merge these into 1 citation and perhaps consider summarising the views of this historian a little more succinctly. I have not read the book, but if it is notable, then I see no reason not to mention it here.
Also, let me make this clear, I have no idea as to the truth or importance of what you are saying, nor do I intend to discuss it. I am however commenting on the style - and it needs some improving. Congratulations on the improvements you have already made. BananaFiend (talk) 13:00, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I did not know why you said I was a "vandalist", but having reviewed the change-log I realise I tagged your edit as vandalism - this was incorrect and I apologise for it. BananaFiend (talk) 13:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, as you can see, I am desperately searching for citation, adding appropriate pictures, quotations, justifying stuff already mentioned (example of this is that where there was a verification request for "some states" I went over various transcripts of Osama bin laden to see who he accuses of waging war against islam). I hope you'll be patient and see it to the end. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xe Cahzytr Ryz (talk • contribs) 13:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I will indeed - this is an emotional topic, good luck with your edits. BananaFiend (talk) 13:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Not a loudspeaker for Bin Laden

Wikipedia is not a loudspeaker for Bin Laden, nor are we the al-Qaeda press. It seems that every instance of "war against Islam" mentioned by extremist groups is mentioned here, while very little attention is given to academic and reliable sources.

Academic reliable sources don't exist, you say? That would be a just cause for deletion. If they do exist please use them instead of publishing Bin Laden's rhetoric.Bless sins (talk) 04:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)