Talk:Walter Kaufmann (philosopher)

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[edit] hmmm...

I'm Thinking about changing the article so that Kaufmann's philosophical interests are stressed slightly more so that it is made clear that his works of philosophy are just as important, or perhaps moreso, than his translations. What I'm hoping to accomplish in this is making it so that the reader doesn't see that Kaufmann is, seemingly, "just a translator."

hmmm...Why don't we argue about whether we should crack eggs on the top half of bottom half of the shell? Like any other artist, WK's philosophy is one thing and his translation of Friedirech Nietzsche should be viewed entirely separately. WK's opinions on Nietzsche's writing only serve to limit the infinite perspective expreessed in Nietzsche's philosophies (or philologies, oftentimes). The power of his work was coopted by various nationalist movements and they succeeded in bastardizing his philosophy, to the point where the only translation at all was done by someone with what I view to be an insufficiently stubborn mind to appreciate Nietsche's true points. F.N.'s used a hegelian dialectic to hold conflicting ideas in concert with one another and then developed pragmatic solutions. WK will be remember for the translations, if anything. DavoudMSA (talk) 12:06, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to read at least one example of Nietzsche's use of "Hegelian Dialectic" to hold conflicting ideas in concert with one another and then develop pragmatic solutions. As far as I know, Nietzsche did not use any such "Dialectic," hold any such ideas, or develop any such solutions.Lestrade (talk) 14:19, 23 February 2008 (UTC)Lestrade

[edit] makes sense

I notice that the Princeton website says: "Kaufmann was a philosopher, teacher, translator, poet, and photographer." In other words, they put "philosopher" first. His philosophical book on Nietzsche seems to have been hugely influential. (Quote is from: http://philosophy.princeton.edu/walter_kaufmann.html )

[edit] Kaufmann and Judaism

Saying that Kaufmann "rejected" Judaism is stretching things a bit I think. In fact, a reading his later works of the 1970's, especially Religions in Four Dimensions and the Man's Lot trilogy shows pretty much the opposite. I think its safe to say that he was an atheist (though that itself may be up for debate), but he clearly had a great deal of respect and affection for Jewish thought, from the prophets to the 20th century.

--rl

It appears we differ on the use of "rejected." I think it fits perfectly, if Kaufmann was an atheist. I have a lot of respect for a number of religions, but I reject them all as a basis for my beliefs. Alan Nicoll 01:32, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

Kaufmann would disagree with the idea that disbelief in god is incompatible with Judaism. In this way, Judaism is different from Catholicism and Protestantism (for example). Rituals, folkways, customs, and social groups form a large part of Judaism and do not require belief in god. --goethean ॐ 15:24, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Did Kaufmann practice the rituals, follow the folkways and customs, and participate in the social groups? Also, can you support your claim that Kaufmann would disagree? Alan Nicoll 14:50, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
I don't know the extent to which Kaufmann participated in Jewish ritual, because he never wrote about that. Yes, I can document my claim with references to his books, but that will take some time. And I'm not sure why I'm supposed to prove something that anyone who has read Kaufmann would know. Have you read Kaufmann? Or are you just talking out of your ass? --goethean ॐ 15:02, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
If you can push Kaufmann as a believing Jew, then I have to wonder how much of his work you've read. I've read his Faith of a Heretic and Critique of Religion and Philosophy multiple times, and other of his books as well. I agree that he had "a great deal of respect and affection for Jewish thought"--he clearly has great respect for the prophets; I do also. But given his strong criticism of Judaism and Christianity in the books I mention, it seems to me very misleading to suggest that he was a believing Jew. I've never heard of a kind of Judaism without God. I have not, however, read the books you mention. I see no reason to put this discussion on a personal basis--surely we can disagree like gentlemen? Alan Nicoll 02:25, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
You've mentioned only his earliest works from the 50s. Kaufmann was invariably an atheist, but if you read his last works (Man's Lot and Religions in Four Dimensions), it is clear how deeply he felt that the Hebrew prophets were extraordinary human beings. I would claim that there is a definite "turn" in WK's thought from the purely anti-religious writings of the early years (for example, inFaith of a Heretic), to his understanding of the different "dimensions" of religion beyond simple belief. --rl
Our areas of agreement are large. We're disagreeing very little here, over a question of emphasis and choice of words.Alan Nicoll 16:43, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Having read much of Kaufmann, I would suggest that his affection for the Jewish faith has more to do with its sympathies and cultural leanings, than with any metaphysical beliefs. While Kaufmann did reject much of the metaphysical truths of traditional Judaism (e.g. divine authorship of the Hebrew Scriptures, binding force of the Commandments, etc.), he found in the Jewish faith a way of looking at life with which he was in great sympathy: A tragic view of man, without the anti-humanistic elements of the Christian faith, or the abstractness of faiths such as Buddhism. I believe that Kaufmann was deeply affected by the spirit of the Jews and their faith, more than by any specific dicta therein. 66.108.4.183 16:06, 26 October 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

[edit] Maybe this will help the perplexed

In 1973, I bought a used copy of WK's Critique of Religion and Philosophy, and it changed my life. In it, Kauffman makes clear that Judaism is not centered on "faith," on "salvation," on correctness of beliefs about the supernatural. It is very difficult to become a Jewish "heretic." In this respect, Judaism differs fundamentally from Christianity and Islam. Judaism is more focussed on rituals and traditions, on loyalty to a historical human community that happens to have become very accomplished in recent centuries, on moral reflection, on debate and discussion. It does not claim to be applicableé to all peoples at all times. Judaism is very tolerant of metaphysical doubt even unto atheism, of the notion that the Tanakh is literary and mythical. I have been repeatedly impressed by the way in which Jews write that Jews are not Biblical literalists. Note how a large majority of Israelis do not belong to a synagogue and yet think of themselves as fully Jewish. It is also clear that for millions of Jews in the 20th century, being Jewish meant struggling to make the human society around them a better place than they found it. In practice, this all too often meant a tragic commitment to some form of Marxism or socialism. Kauffmann wrote very little on Marx and political philosophy; did he see those subjects as lightning rods? I note that Kauffmann intellectually came of age during the McCarthy era, and did not become an American citizen until 1960.

Kauffmann was a German Jew by ancestry, whose powerful secular education made it impossible for him to take Judaism literally. Nevertheless, he was strongly attracted to Leo Baeck, Martin Buber, the tragic themes in existentialism, and to a philosophical approach to literature (now curiously out of fashion). I gather from remarks above that Kauffman near the end of his life became powerfully drawn to the Old Testament prophets. Kauffmann splendidly embodied the Socratic dictum "the unexamined life is not worth living."

I know of no obituary essay in the academic literature devoted to Kauffmann's life and work, and am surprised that this entry cites no such essay. This lacuna raises the distinct possibility that no such essay exists.

Final remark: Kauffmann's translation of Goethe's Faust has not attracted the attention it deserves.202.36.179.65 15:31, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Let us become perplexed again... *shall we open our eyes? I note that I should read Kauffmann, and his English translation of Goethe (might well not be a bad idea!) For the rest of it, let us be careful about religion, and about "tragic commitment to some form of Marxism of socialism". This is not a billboard, although sometimes it does look like one. Cheers 202.36 (thirty-six!thirty-six! ) (eh! how's in Greek "the unexamined life is not worth living." ?) Lapaz

[edit] A stupid question: on Judaism

Sorry in advance for my ignorance. But is it really possible to "become a Jew" ? I understand one would want to convert himself to Judaism, but I thought (my ignorance) that one was born Jewish, and from a Jewish mother. I didn't know one could convert himself to Judaism. Please correct me if I'm wrong — Lapaz 03:24, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

You're wrong :) It is certainly possible to convert (see, for example, Wikipedia's Conversion to Judaism article), and regardless, WK was Jewish by heredity anyway, which as it turns out, is what mattered to the Nazis anyway. RobLinwood 04:55, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The essence of jewishness is the law, the Torah. Following the Torah is what truly makes one a Jew. It has nothing to do with any specific eschatological belief, at all. I find WK's translation to be good but his interpretation of the material is obviously from a perspective the Nietzsche himself would characterize as being based in 'slave morality'. I believe WK did as well to translate WK's works as well as he did, considering the situation from which he came. Unfortunately, the result of the Shoah was to timidify German culture and I find WK's analysis to lack the perpsective of a Master. I remember one of WK's laments was Nietzsche's position on women. I don't think WK and others ever stop to think that feminism is just a construct of the military-industrial complex to get womens' productivity into the scam banking system and take more of their wealth through price inflation. Nietzsche understood how easy it was for women to be corrupted and its fairly obvious his positions on women are not violent, merely natural.

At any rate, I believe that the first edits of Nietzsche's work were distorted by the anti-semitism of his sister, whom he despised precisely for her Anti-Semitism. Nietzsche realized that Anti-Semitism and violent Jewish Nationalism reinforce each other by relying on chaos amongst harmonious individuals.

The title of 'Also Sprach Zarathustra', when translated as 'Thus Spoke Zarathustra', strikes me as a deliberate red herring. It simply should be translated, 'Zoroaster Also Spoke'. The fact that 'Zarathustra' is never translated into 'Zoroaster' is simply POOR SCHOLARSHIP. The manner in which the academic community chooses to collectively ignore this obvious fact is an indictment of modern scholarship with regards to Nietzsche's works. It is unfortunate that everything Nietzsche wrote was coopted and we are only left with tertiary edits designed to produce intentional distortion throughout the work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DavoudMSA (talk • contribs) 10:18, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Old Comments

Is anyone else interested in this subject? --RobLinwood 01:05, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I am interested; why do you ask? Also, I question some parts of the article. I see no reason for the "so-called" in reference to existentialism. And the talk of his conversion leaves the impression that he continued an adherence to Judaism. At least in 1959 (the Harpers article) he explicitly rejects Judaism. Alan Nicoll 21:21, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)

I'm interested in Kaufmann, too. I assume that by "so-called" existentialism, the author means that many question whether some of the authors (Dostoevsky, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Rilke) are in fact best described as existentialists. --Goethean 21:40, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

In reference to the 'so-called' description preceding the word existentialism, you may wish to refer to http://www.interchange.ubc.ca/cree/kaufmann.htm

RobLinwood's question is the dumbest that I've ever read on Wikipedia. Everything about Kaufmann and his writings is interesting to certain people. I advise RobLinwood to return to his can of Bud, his football game, and his copy of People magazine.205.188.116.68 13:56, 21 November 2005 (UTC)TetchySmurf
Thanks for your obnoxious and useless remarks. My question (which has obviously been answered) was owing to the fact that WK is not the most well-known or mainstream figure in philosophy. I've certainly added as much to this entry as anyone else, and this discussion page, in which you've felt free to advertise your phenomonal lack of civility, did not exist until I created it. Enjoy. --rl
Hello. Kaufmann was indeed an extremely prominent philosopher during his career; he was one of the most important--if not the most influential--expositors of the Continental tradition in Modern Philosophy in the United States. From his esteemed position on the Princeton faculty, he wrote a series of books unique in American thought. Tragedy and Philosophy, The Faith of a Heretic, and Critique of Religion and Philosophy are still wonderful books, well worth your time. They tie in disparate strands of culture, from Greek tragedy, to European Philosophy, Religion, Jesus, Shakespeare, Freud, in a way which profits the reader immensely, with not only erudition, but great human insight, and a style of expression that is so affecting. I have read some of them three or four times, with continued learning and appreciation. He was much more important than you are aware. Try any of those books some time. You won't be able to put it down. 66.108.4.183 16:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth
I would like to kill this discussion by stating that I do not and never have questioned Kaufmann's revelevance or talent. My question, ill-stated though it was, was just meant to find other people interested in him, not to express skepticism as to the value of his works. I am an enormous fan of WK, and have read all of his writings -- I would not have contributed to this article otherwise. When I posted that comment, there were no other comments on this talk page, and I was keen to find others who shared my interest of Kaufmann's works. Please take note of dates when posting and reading comments. I am moving this to the bottom of the page to reflect both its age and general lack of relevance. Thanks. RobLinwood 05:04, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect item in bibliography

I don't have time to investigate it, but the entry

“Some Typical Misconceptions of Nietzsche's Critique of Christianity,” Philosophical Review v. 63, no. 1 (January 1954), pp. 3-18

is incorrect. That citation should be for “Hegel's Early Antitheological Phase,” which appears earlier. I don't know where the 'misconceptions' article is, or if it even exists.

I think what User:droptone found at Resource Exchange must be it. trespassers william (talk) 16:16, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nietzsche criticism

Thanks to User:Danny lost for supplying the page number for the quote criticizing Nietzsche.[1] Now that I've been able to look it up though, I see that it needs to be removed. Immediatly after the part quoted in the article he goes on to say: "...because he had no system. Yet this argument is hardly cogent." Thus I will remove it. It also throws into question the other criticism supposed to be from the intro to his translation of Zarathustra. Does anyone have access to this? Someone who could also verify? ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 02:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I checked the "Editor's Preface" at The Portable Nietzsche, 103-111 (It ends with the quoted conclusion, but doesn't open with [2]). There are some sentences to the proposed effect:
  • "We might wish that he had taken out his histrionics on Paneth and spared us some of the melodrama in Zarathustra...But often painfully adolescent emotions distract our attention from ideas that we cannot dismiss as immature at all."
  • "After all has been said, Zarathustra still cries out to be blue-penciled; and if it were more compact, it would be more lucid too...What distinguishes Zarathustra is the profusion of 'sapphires in the mud." But what the book loses artistically and philosophically by never having been critically edited by its author, it gains as a uniquely personal record."
  • "This overflowing sense of humor, which prefers even a poor joke to no joke at all..."
  • "Nietzsche's writing, too, is occasionally downright bad, but at its best-superb."
Indeed, there is no philosophical criticism here, only stylistic one. See also Thus_Spoke_Zarathustra#Translations, which suggests that Kaufmann tried to fix details in the book. trespassers william (talk) 20:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. I've removed the verification template as, per your entry, the stylistic criticism seems valid. At some point though I think this topic needs to be expanded and balanced with more specifics. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 14:33, 10 June 2008 (UTC)