Talk:Voseo

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[edit] Tratarse de tú y vos

In Vargas Llosa's Conversation at La Catedral, it is used (once) "tratarse de tú y vos" to indicate familiarity between boss and servant. Internet gives back a few more examples. Now, in Argentina I've never heard it. Is it common in Peru or elsewhere? If true, it might be interesting to mention it here. Ejrrjs | What? 09:06, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, perhaps it has been used in Argentina:

nada más que porque estábamos en el extranjero, ya se imaginaba que debíamos de tratarnos de tú y vos.
Lucio V. Mansilla: Horror al vacío.

[edit] Differences among countries

This needs more research, but it should be noted that among the distinctions between countries, some countries use both. My understanding is that in some parts of the Spanish-speaking world, vos is condescending rather than familiar, whereas in other countries this is obviously not the case.

In Costa Rica vos is moslty used and tu is usualy regarded as being "imported". Kinds that watch a lot of Discovery Kids (like mine) use tu, at least for now. In Guatemala and El Salvador you might find a little more of tu and a little less of vos. --65.182.16.84 23:41, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Você (Portuguese) vs Usted (Spanish)

European Portuguese "você" and Spanish "usted" are not semantically equivalent. The deferential form of 2nd person address, both in Brazil and in Portugal, is actually "o senhor/a senhora" rather than "você". "Você" is normally used in Portugal to address someone who is socially equal, but whom you don't know very well. Unlike Spanish "usted", I believe "você" would not be used for example to address the president of the Portuguese republic or any other public authority. Besides, I think the comparison with Brazilian Portuguese is inadequate in the sense that, unlike "vos" in Spanish, "você" is a standard Portuguese pronoun which simply happens to have acquired a different semantic value in Brazil replacing informal "tu" (see the T-V distinction article for further information on Portuguese and Brazilian usage). 161.24.19.82 17:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No Sources

There are no sources on this page to support entries. Elhombre72 10:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

There are now. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 11:55, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


Well, now you need ones that weren't written by English-Only speakers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.210.97.28 (talk) 03:33, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] El Laberinto del Fauno

In the current movie El Laberinto del Fauno, set in Spain in 1944, a faun addresses someone with various laudatory titles (altesa and whatnot) and with the pronoun vos. Is this a throwback to the medieval use of vos as a formal pronoun? If so, is that common in fairy tales in Spain? Maybe that should be mentioned in the article.

—RuakhTALK 06:06, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

This "vos" is indeed a laudatory term for royalty and such, not the modern use in certain latinoamerican countries like here, in Costa Rica. Verbs would also be diferent: "vos sois" (formal, ancient, laudatory) vs. "vos sos" (informal modern use in Central America, Argentina, Uruguay...) --65.182.16.84 23:41, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Vuestra Merced/Usted

I'm wondering where someone picked up the source that indicates that "Vuestra merced" slowly, over time, morphed into "Usted". I am certain that "Usted" evolved from the Arabic title "Ustadh" (unfortunately the computer I'm working on leaves me unable to render this in Arabic), as a result of Moorish rule. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Leftwing Pinko (talk • contribs) 01:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC).

Whatever source was used, the Diccionario Usual (Usable Dictionary) of the Real Academía Española (Spanish Royal Academy) agrees with it: see the etymologies it gives for usted and vusted. (Well, it doesn't say whether it happened quickly or slowly; but it agrees that vuestra merced → vusted → usted, at least.) —RuakhTALK 04:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

The discussions I've seen render the Arabic word as استاذ (ustaadh). Although the RAE is obviously an important source, IMHO they are not necessarily the final authority on the history of the language. I'm curious if the theories of the Arabic origin might be true although I have no idea how seriously this theory is taken by mainstream scholars. See [1] --Mcorazao 04:42, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Most of the discussions I have seen on this topic debate seem to imply that if Usted was borrowed from Arabic it must simply have been borrowed wholesale at one time and rapidly became common in the language. The fact that there is not a sudden rise to prominence of this word at an appropriate time during the Moorish occupation is pointed to as "proof" that this etymology is false. Personally this seems overly simplistic to me. It seems entirely plausible (if not likely) that a word like this could have existed (perhaps initially confined to the Mozarab community) and not had wide use because most people associated this with Islam. Then, as time passed people forgot the origin of the word and it became more accepted. This is essentially what happened with the word Ojala which is a known Islamic religious reference and yet today is seen by most as a Christian religious reference. As far as the documented evolution of "vuestra merced" I could not comment except to say that perhaps this is a case of convergent evolution. I.e. people were using both "vuestra merced" and "Ustaadh" and the two gradually morphed into a single word that more closely resembled "Ustaadh" (and in that case it would make sense that the RAE documented one side of the evolutionary tree over the other).
Anyway, just speculation on my part. --Mcorazao 14:24, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed "tu" less formal than "vos" mistake

I removed certain references to the use of "tu" in Central America. "Vos" and "tu" are both informal and none is more formal or less formal than the other, or used when talking to kids or the like. Nowdays some kids (like my own!) talk of "tu" because that's what they get form Discovery Kids in spanish here in Costa Rica. Some people speak of "tu" when talking with foreigners (Colombians, Mexicans, people form the US that learned spanish with "tu", etc.). I would only use "tu" to address people whose native language is not spanish and that get confused: otherwise I just can´t do it (I'm too much of a vos guy and I guess when we were kids we didn´t like people that talked of "tu" too much, specialy costarricans that lived in México or Spain and came speaking "mexican" or "castilian" and not "costarrican") I usualy talk to my little girl of "vos" and she responds with "tu", "tu que quierés papito" (what do you want dady) I also worked a lot with people from the rest of Central America and I´ve been plenty of times to Guatemala and El Salvador. There´s also a lot of nicaraguans here in Costa Rica. I guess people get confused when we play around with "tu" and "vos".cgl--65.182.16.84 23:54, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)