Talk:Voiceless velar fricative

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I do not understand the most recent edit: 'the German name "Bach" when it is pronounced wrong (like usually in English).' It seems to me that the voiceless velar fricative is the correct sound for the "ch" in "Bach", but that many English-speakers substitute [k] for [x]. I hope my edit is clear. -- Lesgles 05:06, June 27, 2004 (UTC)

After seeing I wasn't quite correct about some of my English language examples for aspirated vs. unaspirated voiceless consonants, I'm not so sure about my German example either. If someone believes the aspirated/unaspirated distinction I have made here to be incorrect, by all means change it, and if someone with a better knowledge of German phonology can verify that it is correct, please leave a message here to that point. Thanks. CyborgTosser (Only half the battle) 00:53, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It appears that a good amount of material on German phonology on the English Wikipedia is incorrect with respect to the Ach-Laut sound. According to this, it is more often a voiceless uvular fricative, so I will move the example there, and note that this is a dialect variation. CyborgTosser (Only half the battle) 20:46, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Most material on German phonology anywhere fails to take the regional variation even within Standard German into account. Pluricentric language and all. David Marjanović 22:35, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

It appears an anonymous user has changed the German example without commenting on it here (as well as changing the example in voiceless uvular fricative). This has been very frustrating as I changed the example to reflect more accurately the reference above and what I was told by a German Wikipedia user. See Talk:Voiceless uvular fricative for discussion. I want to get this right. CyborgTosser (Only half the battle) 00:27, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm a native speaker of both German and Dutch, and as far as I know, the ach g in both languages is the uvular vl fricative. The palatal fricative, x, is what we in the Netherlands refer to as the "zachte g", means "soft g", used in southern Dutch dialects such as Brabants. [oliver lenz]

A few versions of German (both dialects and regional versions of the standard) have [χ] behind /a/ and /ɔ/. The Alemannic dialects have [χ] as the only realization of /x/. The rest of German lacks [χ] entirely. I'm a native speaker of two such varieties. David Marjanović 22:35, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Hanukkah example

I'm pretty sure that the 'ch' in Chanukkah is an uvular fricative, not a velar fricative - at least in modern Israeli hebrew... maybe that example should be taken out. (See Voiceless uvular fricative) --Mo-Al 03:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

This problem still exists in the "In English" section.--Mo-Al 02:54, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alternate substitution in English

As an Australian, I've noted that in some exceptional cases, /x/ at the end of a word is turned into a [ʃ] instead of a [k]. The most obvious example I can think of is in the name of Australian celebrity David Koch, where his last name is instead pronounced [kɒʃ], probably to prevent an unfortunate phonetic clash with "cock". I considered putting this in the article, but I'm not sure whether this is at all worthwhile for the article, as it does seem to be a very rare occurence, and indeed, I'm struggling to come up with any other examples of such a substitution. -- Kirby1024 01:09, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Or perhaps he thought it was French? David Marjanović 22:35, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad I've found the name for this. I've always just called it "that consonant I can't pronounce." (So far, it's the only consonant in any language I am convinced I am unable to produce). moink 20:50, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

It is definately the most diabolic consonant that exists. Ragzouken 16:33, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I bet there are lots of consonants out there that you simply don't know… there are really difficult ones out there! :^)
it is ten times easier than English dental fricatives. (Maybe this will help you: It is like k, but don't let your tongue touch the soft palate, just get close enough to it to make noise.)88.101.76.122 13:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] X

In Russian, the X letter is pronounced as ç and not x.

Wrong. It can be [x] or [xʲ] depending on the surroundings, and the latter sound is similar to [ç], but it's not the same. David Marjanović 22:35, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inaccure .ogg file?

I am Jewish-American, Hebrew being my second, yet semi native toungue, given that i learned it a young age. The speaker in the .ogg file is not pronouncing the hebrew version of the "ch" sound correctly. It is much rougher and sounds like throat clearing, almost.

Yep, the Hebrew one is uvular. See Hebrew phonology. David Marjanović 22:35, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] German example

I'm a native speaker myself, and I had never heard of the word "zach" used as an example here. I looked it up in a dictionary and it was noted as a regional, probably dialectal word. Now, I don't want to just edit it to another example, seeing how there seems to be a slight difference betweeen the voiceless velar fricative and the voiceless uvular fricative that in all honesty, I'm not sure I understood correctly. So, I propose using an example that is actually known to German speaker, unless the former only occurs in some german dialects and the typical "throat" sound is the uvular one, in which case I propose to mark is as dialectal with annotations of what dialects and that it is only used there instead of the uvular version. --91.0.68.156 19:31, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

It was in my oxford dictionary but as far as I know, any German word that rhymes with "zach" or "pacht" will have the voiceless velar fricative so don't be afraid to change the example word. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 03:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm a German speaker, too, and at least I never say [dax], but always [daχ]. Maybe it's allophonic in words like "Kachel" for some speakers? Is there any reference that backs this up? — Sebastian 01:24, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

It's regional, say above. I always say [d̥axˑ].
BTW, there is no Standard German word zach, except for a rare surname. There is a word in the Austro-Bavarian dialects which could be spelled this way, [t͡saːx], but in Standard German this appears as zäh ([t͡seː] in the south, [t͡sæː] in the north, roughly). David Marjanović 22:35, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish example

Are you sure the word "ojo" is pronounced with the voiceless velar fricative? I was taught the letter jota makes an /h/ sound when used as a consonant, although I suppose if you speak quickly it might sound like /oxo/. -- Mwalcoff 04:54, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

/h/ and /x/ are similiar sounds, especially to speakers with only one or the other in their phonetic inventory. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 07:11, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
It all depends on which kind of Spanish you speak. In Spain itself ojo is [ɔχɔ]. David Marjanović 22:35, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect pronunciation hint

"prepare to say yes. Now, without moving your mouth or tongue, instead of making the 'y' sound, expel a light burst of air-this is the voiceless velar fricative"

Would'nt this be the voiceless palatal fricative? iv changed the entry slightly so that it is more accurate, but if im wrong please correct me.

[edit] Non-sibilant

Is there a non-sibilant velar fricative? Is that what [ɧ] is? ionas68224|talk|contribs|email 09:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[ɧ] has been described as a co-articulation of [x] and [ʃ], although that has been disputed. 24.235.155.156 01:43, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Finnish example

The Finnish example is quite simply incorrect; the voiceless_velar_fricative sound does not appear in the Finnish language. The correct pronunciation for "lahti" is with a voiceless glottal fricative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.181.150.253 (talk) 17:37, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Irish example

The broad 'ch' in Irish is an uvular fricative (contrasting with the palatal fricative). Velar fricatives are liable to be conditioned very heavily by context; in Irish inflexion and some contexts result in the palatal fricative, but one does not hear the same variance seen as with the velar variety. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.134.221.224 (talk) 10:34, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arabic

The KH in arab word "Khodhra" is not pronounced the same way as German "nacht". It is much harder, and the soft KH does'nt even exist in any varieties of Arabic that i know. It is always pronounced in the hard way - as in persian Khorram. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.51.211.84 (talk) 18:54, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I think the German example might be wrong. But it is true that the Arabic sound is typically a bit more back in the throat than the German one. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 20:47, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This really looks VERY wrong to me!

I'm another German native speaker, and I can tell you: the russian 'x' letter is NOT the same as the "Bach" "ch"! Just hear a German speaker pronunce "Bach" and then listen to a Russian speaker pronunce "Michail" in his native language! The Russian sound sounds much weaker and softer. There IS a difference, and this should be considered. [edit] Just wanted to note too that Russian 'X' letter and Greek 'X' letter are more closely together than Russian and German: compare to Greek 'nyxta' (night). -andy 84.149.103.162 (talk) 23:46, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

German ch is uvular after a. This is why the example is not Bach. Compare German Kuchen with Russian кухарка Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 00:21, 16 December 2007 (UTC)