Talk:Vocative case
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[edit] Marking vocative in English
I'm not completely familiar with the technical jargon of verb tenses in English (sorry), but what do you mean when you say that, in English, the vocative case isn't marked? Reason I ask is because of the form "Sing in me, O muse", which is vocative. I don't believe "O" has any other function in English, so is that not a mark? -- PaulDrye
I couldn't think of any other use for O either but you can make English vocative case sentences without O or any other mark. --rmhermen
Given vocative examples without marker can be made in English, that justifies the "unmarked" description. The existance of O I think qualifies as practically vestigial, rather like the word both doesn't indicate English actually has a dual number in addition to singular and plural. -- kd5mdk
[edit] Addressing not only a person
The article currently states: The vocative case is the case used for a noun identifying the person being addressed. At least in Polish and I'm almost sure that in other Slavic languages as well, a vocative case of any verb may be used i.e. not only people, but also abstracts (eg. ciemności! = O, darkness) and objects (książko! = O, book) may be addressed and if so, these nouns are then used in the vocative case. Of course the two latter situations are rare compared to addressing people, but sometimes these forms are indeed used. The section Vocative-like expressions in English also provides examples that addressing people is not the only use of this case. As I hope to be agreed with, now I'm going to add appropriate examples to the Polish section of this article, but would like someone to update the article's initial paragraph as I'm having problems with terminology. Gdabski 23:11, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Right you are! The Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian language example of which I can think is the song "Beograde" ('O, Belgrade', to stick with our way of representing vocative in English, and not forgetting that "Beograd" is the root (i.e. nominative form).) Language is open-ended. Adam Mathias 02:12, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Vocative Cases in Arabic, Chinese, and Korean?
I have removed the references to vocative cases in Arabic, Chinese, and Korean, because they are not "vocative cases" in the grammatical sense. "A" or "ya" as described in Korean or Arabic are either interjections or grammatical particles, and they are not grammatically necessary. In Chinese, the use of "a" as the first syllable for calling someone is not grammatically necessary, but rather a common way of constructing nicknames. 阿明 is a nickname rather than the vocative case, as we can still use the same word to refer to him even if the name is not used in the vocative case. Same as in English, a person named Robert may be called Bob. However, the word "Bob" is not restricted in the vocative case, but the nickname can be used in the nominative, dative, or accusative cases. Wng 05:16, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Please cite your source, discuss and having reached a concensus before unilaterally delete sections, especially ones with multiple contributions, thanks. I don't speak Korean nor Arabic so I won't comment on them. But when you said "grammatical particle", isn't that the general classification of a vocative particle?
- You are correct in that 阿 does not strictly indicate vocative case just as in the example in the intro: "John" itself is a vocative address. 阿 is just one way to express vocative, especially in Cantonese. Yes, it's by no means necessary but doesn't mean it's not a case either.
- See the following links citing the use of 阿 as vocative and/or address:[1][2][3][4] --Kvasir 08:13, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- I won't touch the Arabic part then, as I don't speak Arabic and I'll let native speakers comment that. As for Korean, if it is used only in casual conversations and it is not required, then it means that Korean does not have the vocative case. English has lost the vocative case, and from the description, Korean is similar (from the discussion above, English can have the word "O" mark the vocative case, but no "O" is acceptable as well). In Chinese, the addition of 阿 is not required, as also acknowledged above. Although its use may be primarily vocative, 阿明 can be used in the nominative, dative, accusative, and all other grammatical cases without any grammatical declension. My opinion is that this article should be limited to languages that have noun declension with a vocative case or languages that have necessary morphemes (otherwise considered grammatically incorrect) to indicate the vocative case. Vestigial vocative cases (as seen in various Indo-European languages) that have morphemes making them different from other cases, as is the case of Venetian, may be worth mentioning. I have read the sources you cited, but none of them talks about grammar. Rather they're about culture, and how people address each other. All languages and cultures will have some kind of addressing each other, but this article is about grammar and should be limited to that. I placed the dubious mark in the article so other users may comment. --Wng 10:53, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- I would like to suggest someone confirm whether the vocative case is or is not used in the Korean language. As a native speaker of the Korean language, I would like to inform you that the use of "야" or "아" isn't optional; simply saying "경철 이리와" does not make sense. You have to say "경철아 이리와." I'm afraid I do not have a background in linguistics so I may very well be wrong, but wouldn't this prove that Korean has the vocative case? (I'm sorry, but this is my very first edit in wikipedia.. I'm not sure whether I should be editing this "page" in this way) -- (not sure of my user name.. I believe I had one, but I forget what it was) 10:47, 10 June 2007
- I won't touch the Arabic part then, as I don't speak Arabic and I'll let native speakers comment that. As for Korean, if it is used only in casual conversations and it is not required, then it means that Korean does not have the vocative case. English has lost the vocative case, and from the description, Korean is similar (from the discussion above, English can have the word "O" mark the vocative case, but no "O" is acceptable as well). In Chinese, the addition of 阿 is not required, as also acknowledged above. Although its use may be primarily vocative, 阿明 can be used in the nominative, dative, accusative, and all other grammatical cases without any grammatical declension. My opinion is that this article should be limited to languages that have noun declension with a vocative case or languages that have necessary morphemes (otherwise considered grammatically incorrect) to indicate the vocative case. Vestigial vocative cases (as seen in various Indo-European languages) that have morphemes making them different from other cases, as is the case of Venetian, may be worth mentioning. I have read the sources you cited, but none of them talks about grammar. Rather they're about culture, and how people address each other. All languages and cultures will have some kind of addressing each other, but this article is about grammar and should be limited to that. I placed the dubious mark in the article so other users may comment. --Wng 10:53, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- I would like to support you on the use of 阿 in Chinese. I'm really surprised to see it listed like that here, and I think the part on Chinese should be re-written or deleted. Hzh 12:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- In the case of vernacular Cantonese Chinese my understanding is that the prefix 阿 is almost always obligatory - I am not sure whether this is the case in other spoken varieties - although this appears more to do with indicating politeness than with marking the addressee. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.114.66.57 (talk) 21:36, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Chinese, Korean, or Arabic should not be listed here unless someone can cite their sources that these languages indeed have the vocative case. Chinese and Korean nouns do not even have noun declension. Arguments that seem to indicate that "Bob" is the vocative case of "Robert" or "dad" is the vocative case of "father" should not be in this article. --Wng 08:45, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- I have provided references showing that the ya particle funcitons as the equivalent of a vocative case in Arabic, although the vocative case is not recognised as a distinct case in Arabic grammar. This should clear up the ambiguity, so I've taken the liberty of removing the "dubious" tags. Rashed (talk) 00:16, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
I am not a linguistics scholar and do not want to pronounce upon the question of whether a vocative must be a case, a separate form of each word; but I do know enough Chinese to be sure that "Ah" before a name is not a vocative. That is, not unless "Hey" is a vocative in English (as in "Hey John!"). --Evangeline 18:25, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Comma after O
There should be no comma after O, as in "O my God." If you are using Oh and not O, that is completely different. Entbark 18:53, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
