Talk:Visual flight rules

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There were two errors in the VFR page.

First, class G (uncontrolled) airspace does not have a cloud clearance requirement other than remaining outside of clouds, so it's not correct to say you must always be some particular distance from clouds. Perhaps we should correct it to say that you must avoid clouds (without going into detail about exactly by how much).

probably correct in the US (I don't know), but ICAO and most other countries say differently to this - there are more rigorous cloud clearance requirements even in Class F/G. ICAO says you still need to be 300m vertically and 1,500m horizontally from cloud (except if 1000m- AGL and 140KIAS or a helecopter); most countries of course translate 300m vertically into 1,000 feet.BaseTurnComplete 21:00, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Second, even the highest-density congested airspace (class B) can be flown VFR. Only class A airspace (above 14,000 feet MSL) requires IFR flight (assuming VMC prevails). It's not unusual to confuse a requirement to be in contact with ATC and to follow their instructions (or even requirements for explicit clearances) with IFR flight -- they are not the same thing. You can fly VFR in such congested airspace and must refuse ATC instructions that put you into IMC, so you'll hear pilots refuse a clearance "unable to maintain VFR on that heading (at that altitiude)".

At least, this is so in the United States. It's my understanding that most other countries are the same in these two respects.

True with regards to the rules in airspace, however the the way the US structures its airspace is very different to many other countries' airspace structures - for starters other countries make much more use of Class G and often do not have Class A at high level (Europe has agreed to Class C at high level Europe-wide).BaseTurnComplete 21:00, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

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You're correct about class G airspace, and I think your addition of the word "usually" was a good way to handle it without adding excessive detail.

BTW, Class A starts at 18,000 msl, not 14,000.

Yes, but if you need to remain outside of the clouds, isn't that still a ``distance from the clouds? Not in the sense of one inch, two inch, but your posistion relative to the clouds?

Contents 1 VFR rules 2 Proposed mergers 2.1 SVFR 3 Slang

[edit] VFR rules

Annother suggestion: the first paragraph states that the purpose of the VFR wx minima is for 'see and avoid.' While this is true, it is actually the second of two reasons for VFR wx minima. The first, and most important reason, is to keep non-instrument rated pilots out of conditions in which they are deprived of outside references.

I would debate what is to be regarded as the first and second reason. Actually, if your statement was correct, why are VFR minima different depending on the type of airspace. For the pilot's ability to keep an outside reference the type of airspace is irrelevant. In fact I think that the article is correct in making the point that the visual method of separation from other aircraft is what differentiates the VFR from the IFR system. (I am not the author of the article).

I just changed the article summary, but unfortunately, only after seeing this discussion. (Sorry, new wiki user). In any case, I agree with the original poster -- the main reason for VFR minima is to keep non-instrument rated pilots from losing control of the aircraft. The exact cloud separation requirements are, as the 2nd poster says, for see-and-avoid purposes. But if you enter IMC as a VFR pilot, the possibility of a mid-air collision is rather remote compared to the much larger possibility of losing control of the aircraft.

[edit] Proposed mergers

[edit] SVFR

Disagree Special VFR is not VFR - it is a set of special rules that can be used to allow flight with visual reference to the surface in airspace and/or meteorological conditions that would normally require flight under IFR.BaseTurnComplete 02:31, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Slang

Sometimes I hear ex-pilots and Air Force Officers say "...flying VFR" as a metephore to take intiative and get things done without guidance. Would this be an apporiate article to put this in? BRI70 01:10, 4 October 2007 (UTC)