Talk:Vistula-Oder Offensive
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The edit adding the reference to "European Theatre" may be misleading. The European Theatre of Operations was a US command, similar to the CBI, MTO or SWPA. I don't think it is synonymous with "the war against Germany". I suggest it be removed. Everyone can see from the map that the campaign took place in Europe.DMorpheus 18:16, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
It is still a lousy article and many important elements of the offensive are missing. The map is incorrect because it includes conquests made after the offensive. I am reading a book about it, but I would appreciate some help. Andries 00:07, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
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- I agree completely. I will try to provide some help. DMorpheus 00:30, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Scope of the offensive
I am a bit confused whether the offensive included attacks by Ivan Chernyakhovsky on East Prussia that started on Jan. 13. The book by Hastings suggests but does not state that it was not part of the offensive. The book by Beevor is is not explicit either, but suggests otherwise. The offensive excludes attacks made after 2 Feb. such as the attack on Pomerania. Andries 06:25, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I think these maps help:
- Vistula to Oder: Soviet Advance Across Poland January 11 - February 2, 1945
- Soviet Advance into East Prussia & Seige of Königsberg January 13 - May 9, 1945
They are part of a series copyrighted to Richard Natkiel, Gatrell Ltd so they can not be copied as images into this article. The talk page Talk:Prague Offensive includes a list of Soviet offensives sourced from http://www.fireonthevolga.com/Red%20Army%20casualties,%201941-1945.html which ties in nicely with the maps above. BTW I know the source for the maps because Ziemke uses them in his book "Battle for Berlin end of the third Reich". As the Offensives on the talk page are similar to those in the maps, I have added the later offensives to the Eastern Front (World War II), but they still need to be stubbed as they are red links at the moment.
I have also included an link to an article called the Capture of Pomerania and Silesia, This period could be included in this article but it would cover the fighting in later Feburary and March which may or may not be inclded in this offensive, and could include the German counter offensives of Feb 16/18. On Page 45 of Ziemke's Battle for Berlin there is a map in the same series as those above showing the counter attack and the front lines during this period. --Philip Baird Shearer 20:15, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Operations details
This is a rather unininteresting subject, because it is clear why the Soviets achieved a breakthrough. I do not know what to write there except for Walter Nehring roving cauldrons. Andries 13:09, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Soviet losses
Krivosheev (oh, to be precise, Russia and USSR in wars of the XX century - Military losses; Moskow, "Olma-Press", 2001, available online at http://www.soldat.ru/doc/casualties/book/) is sited incorrectly. The Soviet losses are not 13 476 irrecoverable, but 43 251, the number of wounded and sick 149 874, not what is stated, etc. I'm going to fix it. With respect, Ko Soi IX (talk) 22:01, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Concerns and questions regarding recent edits
Thsnks for expanding the article but I have some concerns and questions
- References are not expanded but the article is greatly expanded. References must be expanded too. Duffy is by far the best source, I believe
- why was the section of about the flight of the ethnic germans shortened while the rest was expanded?
- Same for the debate between Chuikow and Zhukov reg. the question whether the advance should be stopped. Why was it shortened.
Andries (talk) 18:14, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
- I think the references are coming.
- The subject of the German population is covered in Expulsion of Germans after World War II--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 21:26, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
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- Hi, as mrg3105 stated I will attempt to fully reference everything but would add:
- 1. Duffy is actually the main source for the narrative of the offensive as I have written it; nearly everything I added can be confirmed from the pages cited in my existing references.
- 2. The section about the flight of the ethnic Germans contained material more relevant to the article on their expulsion. Here we are dealing with the direct effects of the offensive, rather than speculating about the reasons for 'revenge'. Similarly, I have not speculated about why the Germans decided to 'evacuate' the occupants of the camps, merely stated that this happened as a result of the offensive in certain areas. This article should be concerned with the offensive's immediate effects, I think.
- 3. This was not referenced in the article. It will be added if/when I can confirm the sources but I was more concerned with getting operational details right first.Esdrasbarnevelt (talk) 23:21, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
- ad 1. please use more inline references because this was not clear for me.
- ad 2. Untrue, flight during WWII is not the same as Expulsion of Germans after World War II
- ad 3. I think it was referenced but that the reference was not clear to you. I will have a look.
- Andries (talk) 10:30, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- Hi, as mrg3105 stated I will attempt to fully reference everything but would add:
[edit] Edit of 'Flight of ethnic Germans' section
I note that someone has edited this. I'm changing it (partly) back for a couple of reasons:
- The evacuation of East Prussia is surely far more relevant to the East Prussian Offensive than to the Vistula-Oder Offensive. If someone creates a page on the evacuations from Poland and Silesia, it can be linked. As it is, it'll be a bit confusing if someone reading about an offensive in Poland clicks on the word 'fled' and finds themselves taken to a page talking about Konigsberg and other places many miles to the north-east.
- I'm going to change millions to 'many thousands', again as we're talking about specific areas during a specific period, rather than about the population movements as a whole.Esdrasbarnevelt (talk) 08:12, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Stop re-inserting this section
- Wild speculation about the reasoning of why atrocities might have happened, in terms of personal motivation of the perpetrators, has no place in this article. If you want to add something on this, look for the articles on the flight / expulsion of the Germans and insert it there. It's enough here to add that the operation caused population movement.
- The grammar is terrible.
Esdrasbarnevelt (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- No, the flight is directly related to the offensive and hence should be here too. I think that Anthony Beevor did not voice wild speculation. Andries (talk) 12:22, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
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- Beevor was writing about reasons for revenge - he wasn't writing about the Vistula-Oder Offensive specifically. As I said, any comment on the motivation for the actions of individual perpetrators should go elsewhere, there's a place for it. This is an article about a military operation, and about some of its effects (e.g. population movement). Your paragraph is related to an (alleged) aspect of the conduct of the war. Why specify it here?Esdrasbarnevelt (talk) 12:28, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- The direct consequences of this military operation should be treated here too. Where else should it be treated? Andries (talk) 12:30, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- The fact that individual Red Army soldiers might have had various motivations for mistreating civilians is not a "direct consequence" of the military operation.Esdrasbarnevelt (talk) 12:32, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- It is very closely related to the offensive. A substantial portion of the book by Beevor deals with the Vistula Oder offensive. I admit that it may be a different matter if an article existed Flight and evacuation of ethnic Germans for the red army during world war II, but such an article does not exist (yet). Andries (talk) 12:35, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
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- How about Evacuation of German civilians during the end of World War II and any number of other articles specific to certain areas?Esdrasbarnevelt (talk) 12:37, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, sorry, I missed that, I will propose to re-name that article into Flight and evacuation of German civilians during the end of World War II. Andries (talk) 12:41, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- How about Evacuation of German civilians during the end of World War II and any number of other articles specific to certain areas?Esdrasbarnevelt (talk) 12:37, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
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- The direct consequences of this military operation should be treated here too. Where else should it be treated? Andries (talk) 12:30, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- Beevor was writing about reasons for revenge - he wasn't writing about the Vistula-Oder Offensive specifically. As I said, any comment on the motivation for the actions of individual perpetrators should go elsewhere, there's a place for it. This is an article about a military operation, and about some of its effects (e.g. population movement). Your paragraph is related to an (alleged) aspect of the conduct of the war. Why specify it here?Esdrasbarnevelt (talk) 12:28, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
If we are to describe the fate of German minority in those regions, then the fate of raped, robbed and murdered Poles by the encroaching Soviets must be mentioned as well. --Molobo (talk) 17:33, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- The German population is mentioned because they were evacuated as a result of this operation. Injustices of war are dealt with .--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 11:10, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
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- Injustices of war are dealt with There is no mention of plight of Polish population which became victim of Soviet terror, arrests, ethnic cleansing in addition to plunder, banditry and rapes by Red Army soldiers. So there is still room for expansion. As they are many scholary sources that inform of this, that information won't be a problem to add to the article if we are to describe civilian situation.--Molobo (talk) 12:22, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
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- But, again, there are already places that this information can (or could) be accessed, such as Soviet repressions of Polish citizens (1939-1946). I see no reason to insert large amounts of this kind of information into an article which is basically about a military plan.Esdrasbarnevelt (talk) 08:14, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
- Just as well they are other places were the fate of Germans is described, yet the information is here. As Poles in this article represent a far larger population that became victim of Soviets then a short paragraph about them with relevant links is also in order.--Molobo (talk) 00:03, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
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