Talk:Virtues of Ultima

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[edit] Randomness

so i was wondering if i am insaine or are there others who live by these virtues as i do, in everyday life. who originated them? was it pulled from an ancient belief or were they picked at random? what is its origin and who do i need to write to find out. avatar_loki@yahoo.com make subject virtues


[edit] Definitions

My definitions for the Virtues of Spirituality and Humility are as follows:

Spirituality = Truth + Love + Courage

Humility = The absence of Truth, Love, and Courage is Pride. Pride is the surest measure of goals never attained. Pride goeth before, Shame cometh after. This Shame leads to awareness of Humility, the root from which all Virtues grow. Humility is to strip oneself of all conceits.


It follows that for Mandrake's Virtues, the definitions for Happiness and Indulgence are:

Happiness = Wine + Women + Song

Indulgence = The absence of Wine, Women and Song is Denial. Denial is the surest measure of appetites never satisfied. Denial goeth before, Need cometh after. This Need leads to awareness of Indulgence, the root from which all Virtues grow. Indulgence is to strip oneself of all restraints.


Teukros 14:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Hythloth = pride?

Isn't Hythloth the dungeon of Pride?

Hythloth is connected to all three altar rooms, which implies that it is the dungeon opposite to the virtue combining Truth, Love, and Courage. That would make it Spirituality. Also, the stone used in Hythloth's place in the altar rooms, the white stone, is the stone of Spirituality (as verifiable on the seventh level of the Abyss), and the color is the combination of the colors of Truth, Love, and Courage. So everything seems to point to Hythloth being the dungeon of Spirituality, which is why I made the change (which I notice I did before I created an account, sorry). Kitanin 03:37, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I think I found the source of the confusion—going through the list of nitpicks with Ultima IX (on the Ultima IX page), it turns out that they got the dungeons confused in the final game. Kitanin 01:26, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] The three principles: Reference to Freemasonry?

Isn't the three principles in Ultima a reference to Freemasonry? I mean, the so called "three principles" are the same as the "three great principles" of Freemasonry: Brotherly love, relief and truth. What do you guys think? --Pinnecco 18:24, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

There's only so many ways to determine the fundamental pillars of the universe before they start to overlap. --Kizor 20:51, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The Order/Chaos forces could go with something to split them up, or signify which is which (colour coding?) As it is all six are in the one table and it could be a little more readily evident which three belong to which side. Also, you could make a really nice diagram which depicted the combinations. Darien Shields 23:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, is it worth mentioning what the warped principles of the modern day Serpent Islers are? i.e. Beauty instead of Love in Fawn, False Honour instead of Courage in Monitor and... umm... whatever was important in Moonshade instead of Truth. Darien Shields 03:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ethical Hedonism

Should this page perhaps contain a short blurb about Lord British's newer philosophy of "Ethical Hedonism?" I remember the philosophy being only very vaguely mentioned in both Ultima IX, and in a book within Ultima Online (I don't think it appeared in any of the other games.) The problem in my mind is that may not be enough material available on the philosophy itself to really warrant including it - it certainly was never developed anywhere nearly as much as the other philosophical systems in the games.

I was thinking of something along the lines of: "In Ultima IX and Ultima Online, Richard Garriott included short treatises on a philisophical system he termed "Ethical Hedonism" - the pursuit of personal happiness tempered by an awareness of the rights of others to pursue their own happiness as well. However, this system was never developed in any more detail beyond these short mentions in these two games."

Any input? Dexeron 17:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Anti-virtues

I don't want to go and remove something that people have clearly put a lot of effort into, but I would like to suggest that the material on the anti-virtues be removed from this article. Though it is interesting, it is a fan-produced extrapolation, not anything that has to do with the canon material. As such, the entire text having to do with that subject does not belong in the article.

However, if completely removing that material seems too drastic, then I'd suggest the "description" text of that section should be severely reduced to make that section shorter--at least, it should be shorter than the material on the virtues with which they contrast....

Barring THAT solution, perhaps the text on anti-virtues would be better put into another article rather than placed under the subject of virtues (since it doesn't really have anything to do with the actual subject.) Geeman 06:57, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I was the original author of that material, when I was a UO player, but I was not the one who published it here on Wikipedia. However, when I found that it had found its way on here, I decided to edit it a little since the original definitions from back then seemed flawed and slightly dated, rather than removing it. I agree now though that being non-canon material, this does not belong in this article at all, so I have removed it. It remains in the page history if anyone wants to access it.
Dominio 14:14, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Wasn't the anti-virtues rather obvious in Ultima IX? IIRC all the runes had been corrupted into their antitheses and had to be purified and restored. Further, the anti-virtues are strongly implied most everywhere, and the Shadowlords and dungeons do represent these. The stictly logical structure of the Principles and Virtues along with the Anti-Principles make the Anti-Virtues a logical necessity, not merely fan-based conjecture. Thus the anti-virtues, perhaps explained along these lines, would be highly relevant material. I'll have a go at it.
Miqademus 09:09, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Done. Rewrote the previous discussion completely, added discussion on "inverted appearance" and removed the original research in-table descriptions of the anti-Virtues. Placed in the "Shadowlord Principles" section, which I, more suitably, renamed to "Anti_principles and Anti-Virtues". Miqademus 09:55, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Original research

This page reads very much like a fansite, and is largely based on original research or synthesized from what are known as "primary sources". I'm not sure I see any room for improvement here, but I am going to wait it out a few days before advancing this to the AFD page in case I'm mistaken. Coccyx Bloccyx (talk) 22:57, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, great. Thanks for that courtesy; I will begin attempts to pull myself together enough to muster a coherent counterargument within that time. Hopefully we can avoid the entire unplesantness of AfD. --Kizor 23:58, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, five minutes' googling found Agency: A Character-Centric Approach to Single Player Digital Space Role Playing Games. This references a lecture that featured the virtues. No doubt those with intimate knowledge of the games or their research will be able to find other sources; I should have a few print ones somewhere, but won't have access to them for weeks at best. --Kizor 00:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
We're talking about an ethical system of a fictional world with a philosophical intent. The original sources themselves expound lucidly on the topic and are relevant sources. There is no original research concerning the interpretation of the Ultima virtues. Unless a significant consensus as opposed to personal opinion indicates otherwise I will remove the OR and other misplaced templates within a reasonable time. Miqademus (talk) 13:52, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Sources on this subject, outside of the games, are far and few between; but there is the virtue video narrated by Richard Garriott that came out around Ultima 9. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deplicator (talk • contribs) 15:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Virtuegump max.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 02:44, 12 February 2008 (UTC)