Talk:Vinland map

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...detailing the explorations of Leif Eriksson, who had discovered America in the 11th century and named it Vinland. I've deleted this as it's incorrect. See the article. Wetman 01:32, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC) But something very like this is correct. Bjarni Herjolfsson is the first European to SEE North America, though he didn't land. Leif Eriksson in 1000 or shortly after landed an may reasonably be called the first European discoverer. He is responsible for the name Vinland, though quite what partof NA it applies to is open to debate. 213.122.49.32 20:54, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Move external links

Can we pare down or move the external links? It's getting rather excessive, and polemical. I'll do it if I can get some agreement.

I don't know who made the above point, but I've just added references to most of the primary sources for information on the V.M., so I'm inclined to agree that the links to news items etc. should be trimmed. David Trochos 18:27, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I've now removed a few links to old news items, but retained links to original research. David Trochos 19:22, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vinland map with the bantu?

The strangest thing about this map is not Americas, but rather that it intends to show how large rivers like the Nile are merging and originating inside the deepest deep of Black Africa. That area of massive jungle was definitely not explored pre-Columbus and in fact the origin of the Nile was only found by Victorian explorers. The cold climate norsemen are unlikely to have wandered into near-equatorial Africa. 195.70.32.136 22:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I know this argument has been made, but it is very weak. The cartographic style of the map is to "close" land - if only one coast is known the other is guessed at. So Greenland becomes an island, Africa is likewise shown as a finite area rather than open to the south. The style encourages guessing at things like where a river might go, and some guesses will be right. 213.122.49.32 20:54, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

If the map is drawn after a globe as I mentioned below then Africa is actually presented in its entirety. Note the small rise in Africa under the Arabian peninsula. If the map is drawn after a globe this is potentially a visually accurate depiction of an incredibly accurate rendering of Somalia on a globe, while the large point to the right of the map is a visually accurate depiction of the southern tip of Africa. If there's any accuracy to this then little about the contours of Africa is guessed at, but is in fact very accurately depicted, though not as a conventional projection. This is very much the kind of thing I would expect to see from an early map drawn after a globe, where the cartographer producing a copy doesn't understand spherical geometry sufficiently to produce a conventional projection. Paperflight 17:16, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

The argument against the historicity of the map based on the drawing of inner-African rivers is not convincing because a connection between the Atlantic Ocean and the sources of the Nile was postulated even in Antiquity (see Ptolemy maps with its connection of Nile, Nigir, Chremes and Daras), in Medieval Mappae Mundi and in Arabic Maps of that time. Nethertheless the projection is unique for Antique and Medieval maps - not a proof, but a serious objection againt historicity of the map.

--213.55.131.22 23:56, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Straying dangerously close to original research, I would draw your attention to the Bianco world map with which, as was recognised by the early Vinland Map researchers in the 1950s, the V.M. shares many place-names and, in a distorted form, the outline of the Old World (yet not, mysteriously, any of the rivers except the Nile). Print it out, and chop it off at the discoloured line caused by the page-fold... David Trochos 18:38, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Forgery or Not

I watched the Nova episode on PBS about the Vinland Map, and according to this documentary it seemed to me that scientists had by the early 2000s pretty much determined to the satisfaction of most objective observers that the map was indeed a forgery (20th-century ink on medieval or renaissance-era "paper"). However, this Wikipedia article currently presents the subject as though the matter is still largely up in the air. Is it, or has the matter been laid to rest? If the latter, I think the article should make a more decisive statement in support of "forgery". --Skb8721 16:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

so it should; I'd be grateful if you could cite more specific sources reporting this. dab (𒁳) 14:19, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Television documentaries often like to "prove" something. Very many specialists have pronounced on both sides of the argument, and it is the specialists we should be listening to, not PBS. It still remains that we don't know. A consensus is something like: this is original parchment (with something written on it) which was tampered with in the 1950s, including addition of a modern ink. This might in theory be a forger creating the map from scratch (but if so he was brilliant, as many specialists have pronounced it genuine). More likely it is a dealer employing someone to make a document more marketable by "improving" it. This is likely to include cleaning, resurfacing, and may well include re-inking of parts damaged by over-zealous cleaning. This is a document which includes non-authentic material, but which may be authentic in its key parts. The jury is still out. Wikipedia should sit on the fence. 213.122.49.32 20:54, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

The 2003 loophole on ink analysis [1] was disputed shortly afterwards [2]. A quick search for sources seem to indicate the consensus leaning to forgery and the unwillingness of Yale U, the owner, to let a complete assessement occur, as the reason for the question still not settled completely. --Pjacobi 00:42, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Most professionals are split on the map and Wikipedia has correctly labeled this judgement as "unknown". As an amatuer historian and map scholar, I believe the map to be authentic.

We are not really able to go on the opinions of amateurs. 65.60.137.13 (talk) 14:00, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
With an almost correct (by modern standards) outline of Greenland, but very distorted coast lines of Europe? --62.143.121.135 19:49, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 13th Century Original...

I don't see anywhere mention of the fairly striking possibility that the map is drawn after a globe. To check this for yourself grab a globe with a diameter of about 12-18 inches, set it a couple feet from your face and turn it so you can just see Australia and the northeastern most tip of Canada. Note now how Africa appears flattened on this globe orientation just as in the vinland map. This also accounts for the curved boundaries and odd relative orientations of Europe and Asia. Paperflight 16:32, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

"Vinlanda" on the map looks rather like a long head wearing spectacles, the "eye" being in the position of the Hudson bay. There is a photograph of Josef Fischer wearing a pair of wire-rimmed spectacles, sat in his chair next to a table with a world globe on it. www.companysj.com/v203/makinghistory.htm. Fischer is suspected by writer Kersten Seaver of drawing the map in the 1930s. 9 March 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.86.143 (talk) 00:49, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Most" or "some" scholars believe the Map to be a fake?

I have a problem here, of the proving-a-negative type. If you look at books about the Norse exploration of the North Atlantic, published since the 1970s, you will find that most of them do the same as the near-definitive Smithsonian volume "Vikings: The North Atlantic Saga": if they mention the Vinland map at all, it is only to comment on the likelihood that it is a fake. For example, the standard English version of the Vinland Sagas, by Magnus Magnusson and Hermann Pálsson (ISBN 0140441549) ignores the Vinland Map, and Magnusson deals with it only in a book titled "Fakers, Forgers & Phoneys: Famous Scams and Scamps" (ISBN 1845961900). Thus when I insist on reverting to the claim that "most scholars believe the Vinland Map to be a fake" I am doing so not on the basis that there is a published source making that claim (although Seaver's book, which includes 80 pages of notes and bibliography, effectively does so in terms of scholars who have actually studied aspects of the map- not just chemists, but specialists across a wide range of disciplines) but on the basis that scholars for whom it ought to be a relevant resource almost unanimously choose to ignore it. David Trochos (talk) 23:57, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

First, let me say that my knowledge of this subject is somewhat secondhand -- it comes through an e-mail friend of mine, who's a scientist at Brookhaven and has been involved in the testing of the map. To some extent, I rely on his information, and it's his opinion that the map is real. I don't personally have an opinion about it one way or the other, but if the validity of the map is a matter of contention -- and it is -- that as a point of factuality, either the lede should say nothing that tends to weight the issue one way or the other, or else the statement should be made in as neutral a way as possible. To say that "some" scholars believe... is obviously true, it adds no weight to the statement one way or the other (OK, it actually adds a *little* bit of weight just but its being there in the lede, but not a lot). To say "many" or "most" is much more contentious -- that's more a factual matter than a descriptive one.

For "some" to be true, there just have to be a number of scholars who fit the description, and your refs would be appropriate in establishing that, but to say "many", now you're qualifying the number as being significant, and you do that either by posting *many* refs, or by quoting someone who's done a survey and has evidence to support the claim. To say "most" is even harder to prove -- now you have to have a count, and show the there's a majority who fit the description.

So, either the statement needs to be removed, or made neutral in another way, or revert back to "some". If you want to say "many" or "most", you need a citation to back it up. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 01:39, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the statement entirely, leaving the bald statement of fact: the autheticity of the map is not proven one way or the other. If you want to reinsert a statement describing the nature of the scholarly debate, do so only with a citation please. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 01:43, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I've rewritten it to try to make it clear that the Norse history community places no confidence at all in the Vinland Map (sorry, but Jim Enterline doesn't count as a Norse historian any more than George Painter or Thomas Marston did). Neutrality is a fine concept, but it must not be allowed to mislead. For the record, the Brookhaven National Laboratory tests on the Vinland Map proved nothing that was actually in doubt- all they did was carbon-date the parchment, which earlier studies had suggested was probably some of the missing material from the accompanying "Speculum Historiale" volume. Unsurprisingly, it came up at exactly the right date. What Brookhaven miserably failed to do was analyse the mysterious chemical soaked into the parchment, which skewed their first results; the presence of this goop had been detected back in 1967, but Brookhaven was the first lab which had been allowed to make a large-scale destructive test that would give the opportunity to analyse the mystery substance. They didn't bother- indeed they showed no signs of being aware of the 1967 study, the 1968 report of which is on file at Yale along with all the others. David Trochos (talk) 09:41, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I've undone your changes to the lede, which are blatantly POV. If you want to make that argument, do so in the body of the piece, not in the lede. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 16:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, I've tried a revised version in the leader, because what you are calling POV is, as Seaver demonstrates, actually the POV of most academics and scientists who have attempted to assess the authenticity of the Vinland Map since 1965. Please change it manually, don't just revert, because both the refs. are also used elsewhere in the article. David Trochos (talk) 19:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
What you have now seems fine to me. Thanks for putting in the effort, I appreciate it. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 19:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Cheers- it's all good healthy exercise! David Trochos (talk) 23:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Skalholt map and l'Anse aux Meadows

I'm going to try and find a form of words to explain how remarkably handy the Skalholt Map was for the finding of l'Anse aux Meadows- on that map, the word "Winlandiae" occurs at the tip of a long north-trending promontory on the west coast of the American continent, that tip being at the same latitude as the south coast of Ireland. The Ingstads used the map to help them narrow the search area, and found their Norse settlement at the tip of a long north-trending promontory (etc.) David Trochos (talk) 23:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The stray black particle

I'm also going to reword the sentence about the stray black particle containing chromite, but I'm going to have to explain why here, rather than in the references. I have very unofficially been given the following quotation from Table 2 of the private report sent by the McCrone labs to Yale at the end of 1973, which describes each particle they analysed; particle 9-C-2 (the chromite-rich oddity) is a "Loose black particle (maybe artifact)". The public reports at the time were just short summaries, concentrating on the anatase, and it was not until challenged by Cahill's 1987 report that McCrone dug out his old notes to compile a fully detailed paper, in which he featured 9-C-2 prominently because it was the only pure black particle, failing to notice the note in his old Table 2. The second edition of Yale's official book gave Cahill the opportunity to reply to this, and featured the heavy hint about stray particles- but the Cahill team never specifically explained what lay behind the hint. Science can be a cruel business. David Trochos (talk) 23:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good. That section was previously worded awkwardly, although I did like the line reference to "a subtle ploy." ClovisPt (talk) 23:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Karakoram or Karakorum?

It is a description of the history and manners of the Mongols that appears to be an early version of the memoir of Giovanni da Pian del Carpine, an Italian Franciscan friar who in 1245 made a trip to the supreme khan at Karakoram.

I changed that last word in the article from "Karakoram", a mountain range, to "Karakorum", the ancient capital. I am unfamiliar with the subject and am not certain it's correct, but it seems likely. Tempshill (talk) 19:10, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Particles

Re the "chromium" particle found "sticking loosely to the surface of the ink line": is it a "20th century" particle? is it the same composition as any of the "many other particles" found in the fold? 26 March 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.162.104 (talk) 18:05, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

A couple of the 30 or so particles from the fold removed for analysis in 1985 contained significant quantities of chromium and iron, like the 1974 stray. The analyst pondered whether they might include chromite- which in turn led to a theory about the original composition of the Vinland Map ink, published in the Smithsonian book "Vikings: The North Atlantic Saga" (2000). However it has been pointed out that chromite (FeO·Cr2O3) contains two Cr atoms for every one Fe atom- but these stray particles (in both the 1974 and 1985 analyses) contained significantly more Fe than Cr. David Trochos (talk) 20:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)