Talk:Viktor Orbán

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Biography Portal
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
This article is supported by the Politics and government work group.


Hi everyone,

A couple of things on the article. By the way whoever did it, congratulations on the job well done.

  1. "Orban is a deeply religious Protestant". It should be "Orbán is Protestant" for the sake of NPOW: nowhere it said or written in public media that he would be deeply religious, and certainly did not act on it while in office.
  2. "Fidesz, which was transformed from a liberal party ... into a right-wing party". Should say "transformed ... into "centre-right liberal conservative", since both in rethoric and action Fidesz is more accurately described this way. Also, it is the term used on the "Fidesz" page.
  3. "collapse of the national right in 1994". If this is in referrance to the MDF, "national right" also doesn't quite cut it, "conservative Christian democrat" would be more appropriate as it is phrased on the "MDF" page.
  4. I'm not sure about the last one. When it talks about the status law, should it be mentioned that all countries opposing the status law have exact or very similar laws in place for a long time now (all 7 neighboring countries for the support of their minorities living in Hungary). This should be fairly important for balance.

Sorry for the long post.

milfor


Just a comment. Certainly fides means faith in latin, but the name of the party is more to do with the intials of: Alliance of Young Democrats.

"Faith" as the translation of fides (from a dictionary of foreign words) was advertised in their own first campaign at the beginning of the 90s. Adam78 12:40, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

1. Sure 2. Let's talk about this further on the Fidesz talk page (and could you link the quote from Fidesz site, please) 3. it's a shortcut. There are two main sides in Hungary: left and right, but these labels are a little bit obscure: "right" wants to stop privatisation, nationalise some services, etc., while "left" uses neo-liberal rhetorics many times. 4. This is a very sensitive political issue -- mentioning it or not mentioning it. Let's keep the page for now as is, I think. --Sicboy 23:04, 4 February 2006 (UTC)


Re-he-heally now? He is Protestant? I thought he was a good Catholic schoolboy. Well, what do I know, right? Anyway, I think the term "liberal conservative" is fair enough as long as you explain that the party is socially conservative but economically liberal. --PistolPower 17:48, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] NOTE to The background of the political career of Mr. Orban

Political analysts believe that the speeches of Mr. Orban in 1989, and also the foundation of the Federation of Young Democrats was due to the conspiration of the communist friends, Mr. Horvath and Mr. Pozsgay, for extending their power even after the democratic changes in Hungary. Recently it is also widespread believed that Mr. Orban was an intelligence agent of the Horvath-Pozsgay ruling communist team against the democratic opposition "SZDSZ" (Allience of Free Democrats) during the transition process from the communist dictatorship to democracy in Hungary.

[edit] NOTE (DO NOT DELETE)

User with IP 80.98.233.132 is from Budapest, Hungary, node name catv-5062e984.catv.broadband.hu, (Chello Broadband), Network: UPC Magyarorszag Kft. Cable installed, cable internet... Budapest confirmed.

-To do: Find out location, get pictures of the place, possible target list...

Hey, he only added that his opponents think OV is xenophobic. Twice. We had vandals removing half of the Hungary page and replacing it with advertisement/propaganda, and we could stay calm and the vandals disappeared. Minekutána fegyverrajongó vagy, a végén még valaki komolyan veszi, hogy megfenyegetted egy darab szóért, és még neked lehet bajod :), tehát: nyugi. --Sicboy 00:34, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New revision about Political Career

Hey. User:Revolutionary here. Please tell me if I've done something wrong with the new section, "Prime Minister of Hungary". I'm sorry if I've botched up the "Life after Government" section, but this is my fault for not having enough resources now.

Oh, and please, someone tell me how to spell this Istvan Csurka fellow's name.

[edit] POV cleanup

I'm going to perform a POV cleanup on the article, as I found it biased.

Such statements as: "the opposition largely remained at sixes and sevens, unable to attract political support in light of Fidesz's overwhelmingly professional political communication campaign." (stating the cause for lack of support as the opponent's communication is highly misleading, since we cannot know the reason why voters decided to favor one party more. The communication argument seems to be false though, since Fidesz did not and does not have the support of most of the media).

"Governments in adjacent states, particularly Romania, were insulted by the so-called status law, which they saw as a direct interference in their domestic affairs." (It should be noted that many neighbouring nations, like Slovakia, Ukraine or Serbia have such similar laws)

"The patriotic propaganda of the conservative government led by Fidesz–Hungarian Civic Party stirred emotions among both its supporters and its opponents andcaused an unprecedented cultural-political division in the country." (We cannot state as a fact what caused the division, because both sides claim the other had caused it. Personally I seem to recall a quite mild campaign from Fidesz, because they were leading the polls by as much as 10% before the 2002 elections)

"For their part, MIEP and Fidesz challenged the government's legitimacy, demanded a recount, complained of election fraud, and generally kept the country in election mode until the October municipal elections." (This is actually a blatant lie. Orban accepted the defeat at election night and Fidesz didn't demand a recount. They did complain about election fraud, but nothing as substantial to significantly influence the outcome of the elections. Lumping together MIEP with Fidesz is like equating a moderate republican with Ann Coulter)

"As the Medgyessy government inherited an economy on the downturn, the slowdown was generated by (among other things) excessive state spending during his predecessor's tenure." (This is absolutely incorrect. Even the left-leaning Economist admits that Orbán had run the economy well.)

"He was also lambasted by opponents for an arrogant communication style, alleged fiscal mismanagement (pointing to the 2000 two-year budget and perceived failure to cut the budget deficit), damaging scandals during his government, excessive negative campaigning against the opposition and nationalism (but his supporters see him as a patriot). He was also accused of neglecting the troubled relations between Hungary and Romania.

Fidesz has been confused in its attemps to consolidate its right wing positioning with populist left-wing propaganda. This lack of clear direction cost Orbán the election in 2006." (I do not think that these allegations should be left there by themselves, they either should be completely removed or expanded with the supporters' take on the issue.)


Please, do not claim things without reference or without adding whose _opinion_ you're claiming, because it might seem that they are facts when they are only opinions.

Comments are welcome. A beautiful mind 14:00, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What I heard

Under the caption of Fidesz, I found: "It was founded in 1988, named simply Fidesz (Fiatal Demokraták Szövetsége, Alliance of Young Democrats), originally as a youthful libertarian party against communism" Nothing about fides, as a latin word.

When Fidesz and Orbán Viktor turned away from liberalism to join christian conservatism, they changed the party name. Fidesz now has no official resolution as a shorthand, the party is called "Fidesz - Alliance of Hungarian Citizens". Since their christian-conservative agenda is more popular with older voters, they no longer want the "young dems" reference in their name.
The original idea for the Fidesz name came in 1987 supposedly, from the post-WWII italian neorealism movie Bicycle Thieves. In one scene the protagonists are searching for the namesake stolen bicycle and one says to the other: "Look at the trade mark, the one bike branded Fides we must find." When Orbán and his fellows decided on this name for the new party, the "Alliance of Young Democrats" phrase was back-invented to resolve Fi.de.sz as a short-hand. At least that was what a founding Fidesz member told me about the origin of their party name. 213.178.114.82 19:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mr. Orban in the media section added

I have added an "Viktor Orbán in the media" section (domestic-pro-gov, domestic-anti-gov, domestic-extreme-right, foreign press). Since current hungarian political landscape is so antagonistic and divided by massive trenches, it is virtually impossible to make a well-referenced section on this topic. I tried to depict what someone who listens to lot of radio, reads lot of net, reads several papers finds in all.

I spent significant time to compose it, make it better if you wish, but deleting it would be stupid since the topic exists and is very worthy of description. Modern politics is highly media-oriented, especially in Huhgary it is decisive, since democracy is only 16 years old and all magyar people are "genetically receptive" to antagonization (cannot say it any milder). We call this unfortunate phenomenon "turáni átok" or "the curse of Turan". Media has huge responsibility in how people perceive domestic politics.

It should be considered that conservative media has limited distribution in Hungary due to regulatory and market realities.

The only two over-the-air nationwide commercial TV channels TV2 and RTLKLUB are both pro-gov (liberal), having thanked their long licence extension to the reigning gov't coalition (RTLklub has the famed Orbán-Fidesz-mocking "Heti Hetes" talkshow, TV2 intellectually anti-Fidesz, less active). State-run on-air MTV1 is well, state-run,,they did not even show themselves being besieged and torched by mob after the famed Gyurcsany-speech of late Sept 2006. State-run but patriotic and minority oriented DunaTV is statellite/CATV only, thus having limited distribution. Same for HirTV, the hyperactive on-site news channel of the right-wing opposition. The MSZP has its own CATV station called ATV, which tries to counter HirTV, but carries studio talk instead of on-site news. Any porn channel is legal here and unlimitedly available on CATV, satellite or net. This entire situation will not change until digital TV kills analog TV (about 2009-2012).

State radio station Kossuth is mixed, more right-wing than liberal, but few listen to it anyhow. Overwhelmingly huge daily newspaper Nepszabadsag (NOL) is braindead pro-govt. Right-wing daily Magyar Nemzet (MNO) has problems with finding market funds to compete with NOL (which has color print), due to frequent fascism allegations. The very influential weekly HVG had the top boss editior replaced spring 2006 (allegedly to aid in MSZP-SZDSZ election campaign) and HVG is now serviantly pro-govt. Both HVG and NOL are owned by foreign firms with strong european liberal links.

Far-right media exists mostly on the net, they simply do not have funds to print or air anything.

All in all, it is much easier to say "Dirty Viktor Orban!" and have it heard nationwide then praise him. 213.178.114.82 19:59, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

There is a lot of whisper talk going on in Hungary that Viktor Orbán is an ethnic gypsy and his birth family name was Orsós. This would make him de facto excluded from hungarian politics, due to prejudice against the gipsy people (of which sorrowfully a lot is fact-based, since the gipsy do not adapt to a market economy society). Anyhow, MSZP supporters and some commercial radios are quite keen on saying "dirty Viktor Orsós" on suitable occasion. I found this issue too low to include in the article. 213.178.114.82 20:07, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

This sentence does not make much sense to me. "In far right-wing media, Viktor Orbán often earns criticism for not doing enough to uproot the remnants of communism from Hungarian politics (i.e. he did not supplant the MSZP party while Prime Minister). " What was he supposed to do, ban the Socialist Party? Gsandi 12:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Almost exactly. In fact the czech republic made a law after their "velvet revolution" to ban former communist party top brass from holding public offices in the new democratic republic for some 10 or 15 years. The hungarian far right expected that Orban will institute the same law in Hungary, so people like Gyula Horn (who actively participated in the military branch of secret communist state police in 1957-1959, yet became PM between 1994-1998) or Gyorgy Bolgar (journalist who unconditionally licked the rear of communist gov't before 1989 and now publishes anti-conservative hysteria in big daily paper Nepszabadsag) could be forcibly removed from hungarian politics.
It is the dream of hungarian political right, that the MSZP be destroyed and replaced with a social-democrat party and nothing further-left-wing should exist in the domestic political palette. Sorrowfully a true social-democrat party was not formed in Hungary after 1989, even though this political stance was very successful before WWII. 195.70.32.136 16:50, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Critics

Better write a section of this, than Orbán in the media. It is very one sided, therefore POV, and no need to write an essay, insted of a short some line critics section. --91.120.85.175 20:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Breaking my resolution about not discussing politics on the internet (again), I have to delete some of that immediately.

  • First, Hungary doesn't have a "socialist party". It has a party which calls itself socialist, but then, Michael Jackson calls himself the King of Pop, still we don't refer to him that way. Last time I checked its WP article, socialism meant "state, community or worker ownership of the means of production and distribution". Remember, this is a party which sold basically everything that used to be state-owned, and trying to sell more (the State Railways and the hospitals are the next, I believe.) And this party is led by Ferenc Gyurcsány, who, if he indeed follows socialism, the primary concern of which is "social equality and an equitable distribution of wealth that would serve the interests of society as a whole", then he owes me $2 (his wealth – or at least the part of it we know about – divided by the population of Hungary. (Mr. Gyurcsány, if you read this, I'd donate my $2 to Wikipedia, send it to them please. Thanks. Regards, Annie.)
Recently it is said MSZP will change its name to abandon the "socialist party" moniker. They will purchase the small, only nominally existing MSZDP party, to be able to use its "social-democrat" name. Social democracy should be a system where market economy is the cornerstone, but it can be limited to protect public good. Not that MSZP has anything to do with "social", that is something related to do good to people, with or without the name change. They are a bunch of greedy ex-communist turned venture capitalists with a few million brain-dead servants functioning as voting automatons.
  • Second, the word "liberal" is a misleading word since it is hardly objective, it means different things for different readers. For the average American reader all Hungarian parties would seem liberal (except for KDNP with its religious nuts), since the whole of Europe has a more liberal point of view than what the USA has. (And when a party is liberal even when compared to the average European party, that party is quite an anarchist one from a centrist point of view.) Also, "liberal" is a far too beautiful word for SZDSZ, which chose it pretty much only because all the other good-sounding labels were already taken by other parties.
The SZDSZ is best described as a "libertine" party. They support homosex pride, party culture, drug legalization, unlimited abortions and infertility treatment if a chick wants to focus on work career solely and demand total cessation of any state-church relations (currently churches are paid a yearly sum to compensate them for property the 40 years of communism confiscated from them). SZDSZ hates national pride or patriotism and openly advocates cosmopolitan agenda in education and the media. SZDSZ is hostile to the large pockets of ethnic magyars living just outside of hungarian borders.
  • The article mentions the campaign tactics of MSZP and SZDSZ as if the parties and their campaigns were of equal importance, while MSZP is one of Hungary's two largest parties, and SZDSZ is a pathetic satellite clinging to it.
You wish. The sad fact is SZDSZ, which has mere 4% popular support in votes, almost entirely from cities, especially the capital Budapest, holds tremendous government power and positions, inluding minister for economy and minister for health and medical care. The PM Gyurcsany is also closely allied with SZDSZ and supports their very aggressive "reforms", which quickly dismantle state run medical care. It could be said with honesty that big MSZP party is a satellite of the little SZDSZ, because all the wild ideas the current Gyurcsany government realizes came from SZDSZ. MSZP is mostly relegated to supplying voter masses to keep the govt coalition running (mostly pensionerand lowest income / unemployed workers).
  • "Mr. Orbán is accused of various misdeeds: inciting street protests (…), conspiring to restore the monarchy (possibly with him as the ruler) (wtf???), (…) practice "double-speech" (…) containing "coded meanings" to encourage Hungarian far-right extremist movements." Yeah. There is at least one person who believes Queen Elizabeth II of the UK is a shapeshifting alien, still that info is somehow missing from good old Elizabeth's article. Why not include then that Viktor Orbán also turns into a werewolf at every full moon? It's totally, like, true, I heard it from my friend whose neighbor's cousin had seen it.
You don't get it. At least half of magyar population thinks Orban is direct heir to Ferenc Szálasi, the 1944 nazi-copycat leader. The media implies this every day. It is regular to accuse Orban of supporting revisionist and far-right parties. Left-liberal run media says day after day that Orban must not be allowed back to power or he will turn Hungary into a clerical feudal country where former communists will be deported to penal camps. A large part of hungarian population was member to the MSZMP commie party before 1989, so they can be scared and orban-phobized with such allegations easily. on the other hand Orbán is accused of copying the populist "beer and sausages" politics of late communist leader "János Kádár". This is total schizophrenia, but the media can sell these conflicting messages to the masses.
  • Nicknames are funny but they belong in this article as much as "the village idiot" belongs in G. W. Bush's article. (Or at least include the "W is for warmonger" joke there.)
To talk about the "misdeeds of the dirty, grim Orban clown" is daily recreational activity for about half of the hungarian population, they've been conditioned to do so by the mass media. Damn it, I even saw clay garden dwarfs made to the likeness of Viktor Orbán, thus the ugly jokes about his stature issues are commonplace.
  • "…hatred and fiscal discrimination against cities and city-dwellers, wasting instead the country's resources on showy new infrastructure projects in small villages in the countryside, which are slated for extinction anyhow (according to research done by some sociologists)." I'm from the 3rd largest city in Hungary and never experienced being discriminated against, and was glad to see that the wide gap between cities and countryside became a little less wide. Those "showy new projects on the countryside" include counstruction of much-needed highways, dams on rivers which had flooded whole villages in the previous years etc. instead of spending the money on the undoubtedly even more important theatre in Budapest, which, and it's indeed the shame of the nation, had only 44 theatres instead of 45. Also, setting up the villages against the towns, the towns against the cities and the cities against the capital is one of the typical strategies used by every politician (divide et impera, as the Romans put it.) (Also, will anyone please tell me the name of at least one of those "some sociologists"?)
The most common message in media is to accuse Orban of having abandoned the construction of underground railway line 4 in Budapest, plus the relocation of the new national theatre site from city centre to a rust belt area.
  • I'm not much of a fan of Orbán any more, but he did a lot of things better than Gyurcsány, and anything would be better than this capitalist Socialist Party and its anarcho-liberal ally. (well... anything but the KDNP, which the FIDESZ is, sadly, allied with.)
  • Offtopic, but couldn't that template at the end of the article be a little smaller, perhaps only listing the names without telling the whole history of Hungary since 1867 in all the articles?
– Alensha talk 20:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
It is rather large, but my point was to show, at a glance, that Hungary has had many different kinds of PMs - that, say, Szálasi operated in a very different constitutional context than did Rákosi, who in turn ruled under very different conditions than did, say, Orbán. But feel free to experiment with different models, like the German one. Biruitorul 22:18, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Attributes to "The background of the political career of Mr. Orban"

FACT: In the 1980ies Mr. Orban being a university student (Faculty of Law) in Budapest lived in a collage, where the leader, Mr. Istvan Stumpf, was the son-in-law of the Minister of the Interior of the communist regime, Mr. Istvan Horvath.

FACT: Mr. Stumpf and Mr. Orban soon established a confidential relationship. So Mr. Orban could enjoy the hidden and informal political support of the communist Istvan Horvath, who held in his hands the political intelligence services about the hungarian citizens.

FACT: Mr. Istvan Horvath was a very close friend of Mr. Imre Pozsgay, another communist leader, a so called "strong man", of the communist Kadar-regime.

FACT: For decades Mr. Pozsgay was responsible for the ideoligical matters of the Hungarian communist party.

FACT: Mr. Orban is the creation of the last communist leaders in Hungary.

FACT: A proof of that bacame later, that Mr. Orban had chosen Mr. Istvan Stumpf in his government in 1998 as to his Secretary of Chancellery.

FACT: Later in 2005 Mr. Orban has pointed out Mr. Imre Pozsgay to investigate the peoples of Hungary as part of his election campaign for the parliamentery elections in 2006.

FACT: Despite his old communist contacts Mr. Orban has lost the elections in 2006, and he remain the leader of the opposition party "Fidesz".

An opposing opinion to the above facts:
I cannot make much sense of what you write. Orban's government between 1998-2002 was mainly composed of a small group of people who got to meet each other and many of them became close friends while living in the same college dorm and attendind the same freethinkers group. Yes, they are a closed circle.
Orban gained fame during the 1989 re-burial of executed hungarian national communist leader and independence hero prime minister Imre Nagy. In a public speech whose text he did not pre-shared with anybody he demanded the immediate recalling of a 200,000 strong soviet army detachment that has been garrisoned in Hungary since 1945.
Many of the people in late-communist era hungarian leadership, like Imre Pozsgay and Matyas Szuros have turned out to be "national communist" thinkers, like late martyr-PM Imre nagy was. Since 1990 they have distanced themselves from the ex-commie MSZP party and joined the skirts of Fidesz, thinking the "national" aspect of their personal political agenda is better fulfilled by Viktor Orban, compared to the essentially nihilist stance of the MSZP + SZDSZ alliance. Many (former) communists with a national aspect agree with now christian-conservative Viktor Orban that the main duty of government is to give security/safety to life of people as a pre-condition for the economic and spiritual progress of hungarian nation and its individual citizens. (For american readers: old continental europe thinks economic-social stability is worth more than US-style liberty, a politican promising security/safety is not necessarily a would-be dictator here).
82.131.210.162 14:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Answer to the opinion above:

It is difficult to try to oppose facts with an opinion. But you've tried without success. Your words are likely from a propaganda source of the Fidesz party.

FACT: The re-burial of Imre Nagy was still controlled by the communist leaders Imre Pozsgay and Istvan Horvath, the leader of the communist intelligence agency of Hungary. Imre Pozsgay has acknowledged last year (2006) that he was advised by Orban of his speech prior to the re-burial ceremony. Now it is clear that Pozsgay and Horvath prepared the opportunity for Orban to build up his image as an oppositionist through his speech at the re-burial ceremony. He knew well that he had no risk at all since he was backed by the highest leader of the intelligence agency. Orban's performace was nothing else than a well conspired stage-play, backed bay the communist leaders being in the highest positions. Orban is just the product of a communist jugglery.