Talk:Vergonha

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"Her defeat and Nicolas Sarkozy's victory ensure that Vergonha will go on for another five years at least." does not appear to have a neutral point of view or be a verifiable fact.

[edit] The end of traditional Occitan provinces

This section is misleading because it makes it seem as if the current regions of France were created during the First Republic. --Lazar Taxon 23:37, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

It looks all too POV, the first footnote, for example. (Anonymous Coward)129.199.159.143 (talk) 16:26, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

The text sounds strongly anti-French. Maybe the information is correct, but the tone is very far from neutral. Unfortunately i don't have direct access to sources and can't check them. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 08:45, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I can see the good intentions, but a general allegation that it "sounds anti-French", without further exposition and followed by an admission of being unfamiliar with the subject does not make a good case for slapping a POV banner on it. I actually find it a surprisingly well-researched article, to the extent of being the best available on this subject on wikipedia at this time, as recognised even in the comments page of the French version. I have decided, therefore, to remove said banner.
Incidentally, I am surprised by the mention of assertions (not in the English version of this article, but elsewhere) that this policy never existed, as I distinctly remember the "Soyez propes, parlez français" signs in public schools in southern France, dating from the 1950s (and still present in the 1980s). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.123.137 (talk) 02:03, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
The key to everything is sources, which this pretty long article cites very sparsely.
It's very strongly anti-French and one doesn't need to be an expert on the subject to see it.
If you want to help fight POV here, open an account, and - more importantly - find some better sources. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 04:34, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually i'm a little stupid. Apparently the article does cite a lot of sources, but they are sprinkled around as external links without a title.
I'm gonna go over them, but in the meantime i'd rather leave the POV tag. Any way you turn it, the tone of the article is anti-French. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 08:52, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

I restored the NPOV tag. If one party wants to remove it and other parties want it to be present, there is obviously a dispute over neutrality, and the tag should be there. --Gribeco (talk) 01:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Here are some instances of non-neutral wording in the first paragraph only:

  • La vergonha (Occitan for shame, pronounced [beɾˈɣuɲɔ]) is what Occitans call...: there is nothing to back that this label is used by a majority or a significant minority of Occitans.
  • as organized and sanctioned by French political leaders, from Henri Grégoire to Nicolas Sarkozy: there is nothing to back the assertion that Sarkozy has organized/reinforced linguistic discrimination in France
  • which is still a taboo topic in France where some still refuse to admit such discrimination ever existed: this claim is vague (some) and not backed
  • ...can be seen as the result of an attempted linguicide...: can be seen by whom? There is nothing to back the idea that this interpretation is widespread.
My point exactly. There are many more problematic passages.
As i said above, the text does have a lot of sources, but they should be checked and converted to footnotes (for readability, if nothing else.)
If nobody picks it up, i'll do it over the weekend. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 13:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh, and now i also saw the edit summary that calls me "anti-Occitan". That's just ridiculous. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 14:02, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Footnotes

I started converting URL's to footnotes. I am doing mostly formatting work - i use the title of the article on the linked site as the linked title and put <ref> tags around it, and not much else.

Some of those websites look amateur to me. I am not sure that they are the best reliable sources, and i'd be happy to hear a second (third, fourth etc.) opinion. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 19:26, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi, i'm lilyu from french WP. That article had been on NPOV dispute there for a long time too. As far as i have investigate this case, it's in fact a POV pushing made by someone called Michaël, from this website, it's an occitan activist.
He has post the same obvious POV text on many wikipedia, and he come back once per month to revert any change that could have been made on his text and remove NPOV tags. After a year of this, and the usual "SS, gestapo, nazi !" stuff, we had to ban him and lock the article.
One of the solution try was to expand the article to what happened to other french local languages, not limiting it to the occitan situation. The article was renamed to something like " French governmental's politicies on language uniformisation" (sorry for my poor english), begining it with the French Renaissance situation when french replace latin as official language (but local languages are mainly used by common people), to the revolution and than third republic when the french language, through national education, is spread as a tool to keep the nation united, to finish with the end of the 20th century when those languages come back with a real policie to save them from disapearing ( through TV, radio, Traffic signs and avenue/town names, revival of the culture as a value for tourism, and high school and university teaching etc).
That's what we tried, but well, no real long term solution has been found yet, and the article is stil underwork.
I dont have the english level to modify the article here, so i will let you try to remove at least what looks the most obvious to you, and wish you good luck with michaël :) Lilyu (talk) 08:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Thank you very much for the explanation. That's what i thought. I'll try to improve the sources slowly. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 11:02, 7 June 2008 (UTC)