Talk:Vercingetorix

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[edit] Cause of Death

The article says that

"He ws probably strangled shortly after Caesar's triumph..."

and then later (of the theory that he was beheaded):

"...but this theory has as little support as that of strangulation."

So the article says that it is probable that he was strangled, but then dismisses the beheading theory as being no more likely than strangulation. This is internally inconsistent.

My knowledge of Vercingetorix comes entirely from reading Asterix books, so I don't know the right way to resolve this inconsistency. Molinari 01:45, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The tale I believe is the one that he was taken to Rome, paraded thru the city and was ritually killed during major festivities some years later. I got this one from the Discovery Channels documentary on Julius Caesars conquest of the Celts... Not changing, someone should fact check it to be sure… Golf

As to cause of death, Roman tradition was to parade defeated leaders, whether kings or great tribal leaders, in the triumphal parade ending in the Lower Forum for the prisoner. The prisoner was then led into a small building known as the Tullianum where he was ritually strangled. His body was then thrown into a lower chamber of the Tullianum. Exceptionally, the Numidian King Jugurtha was thrown alive into the lower chamber in Marius' triumph of 104 B.C. and left to starve to death. Beheadings were usually reserved for Roman citizens, except if they were traitors, in which case they were thrown from the Tarpeian Rock located somewhere atop the Capitoline to their deaths below. (User: Cole, 30-Sep-06)

[edit] Etymology

- To the person who wrote the part about the Actual Meaning of Vercingetorix’s name, where exactly did you get that translation from? I ask for two reasons (1) I have seen an alternate Translation of the name "Vercingetorix (or in Gallic possibly "Fearcuincedorigh", "Man who is chief of a hundred heads")" from this Website: http://www.unrv.com/fall-republic/vercingetorix.php (2) Why do you translate the word "wer" to mean "Super", It was my impression that "Wer" means Man? (i.e. the other source I used interprets it that way). Hibernian

'wer' does mean man, but only in Germanic languages, i.e. Anglo-Saxon "Werewolf" - "Man-Wolf"


- Not Necessarily only in Germanic Languages, "*wíro-" means man in Proto-Indo-European and there are many languages that use or used this root for man.

i.e. Common Celtic *viro-, *vero- (a man) > Gaulish uiro- (a man), Old Irish fer, Irish and Scottish Gaelic fear, Manx Gaelic fer, Old Welsh gur, Welsh gwr, Cornish gur, Breton gour

(Got all that from this site) http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/phonetics/word8.html

however, its incorrect. VER means 'over' or 'great' in Gaulish. --Nantonos 19:17, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

So as far as I can see the Alternative translation there of "Man who is King of a Hundred Heads" seem possible, so what do you all think, should it be added to the Article as a possible meaning of his name? Hibernian


I had seen, at least twice, that "Vercingetorix" meant "King/Leader of the Marching Men", where "Marching Men" would be translated as "Infantry" today. A few classical writers have also commented on the uncanny similarities between Latin and the common Gaulish language at the time. The strangulation issue is usually resolved by citing the number of Roman sources that attest to the Romans' more-frequent use of this method of execution; decapitation is much less frequently written about. Also, the one link to the Gaulish language now returns a 404 error -- Page Not Found. A more thorough search, which I regret I do not have the time right now to do, would turn up more supporting evidence. (I am also new to this -- my apologies for any errors I've made -- mea culpa!)

I suppose that would fit snugly with the 'Hundred Heads' explanation as well - that could well be a fighting unit, such as the Saxon Hundred, commanded by a Hundredman.

Well I'm glad that someone has edited it, but there is still no explanation of the direct translation of the name. What where the Gaulish words making up the name and what do they translate to Directly?. What do the words "wer-king-gheto-rīks" actually translate to , because there have so far been two totally different interpretations of these words on this page, 1. "Super-Warrior-King" and 2. "king of the marching men", I'd like to know why these translations are given and where they came from. Also I think it has to be stated that any meaning of the name given, is reconstructed and Theoretical and not known for sure (unless of course the translation is academically accepted as fact).Hibernian

I will add a reputable and referenced etymology. Its actually very straightforward. VER - over CINGETOS warriors RIX king. So, great warrior king or king of the warriors. There is no refernce to "a hundred' or to 'foot soldiers' in this name. And yes, its pretty well attested academic fact; Gaulish studies have advanced greatly in the last 25 years.
However, it might be worth retaining the 'foot soldiers' and 'hundred soldiers' pseudo-etymologies, if only to mention that they are incorrect. --Nantonos 19:17, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Not that the movie of him ("Druids") can be used as evidence, but there it says numerous times that Vercingetorix means "leader of great warriors", which seems from all these comments to be a plausible translation.

Jean Markale translates it as Great King of One Hundred Battles, similar to the Irish Conn Cetcatach (Conn of the Hundred Battles).

Jean Markale also believes in survivors from Atlantis, so you should take all he says with a fistful of salt. ;-) Trigaranus 17:14, 14 July 2007 (UTC)


The comments above (and this one, below) look more like speculation than conjecture ... at any rate, here's another: for a translation, try "chairman of the high council", where the council means a body that makes decisions by consensus, and where chairman is more appropriate to modern meaning than king.

This at least has simplicity on its side, whereas the hero-ific definitions above (which allude to omnipotent leaders of mighty warriors) give the definition a flavor of blood lust. This comes from Gaulish "ver" and "rix" (as in comments above), and Welsh "cyngat", meaning harmony (ie, a council that rules by consensus).

By the time of Vercingetorix, the Gauls were fighting for their lives, trying to avert cultural extermination. How best to deal with the Roman menace, among disparate peoples who must now act together? The practical solution is a high council, with someone to lead it. It really does not make sense that they would (somehow) set up a poetic "Knights of the Round Table".

For an analogy to the situation that the Gauls faced, consider the similar circumstances surrounding the emergence of Wovoka in the face of US military policy. American Indians were as independent and honor-bound as the Gauls, and facing a similar fate. Their leaders and councils were concerned with the survival of their peoples, and they are remembered in that light.

The more mundane name translation is consistent with Vercingetorix's difficulty in implementing a scorched-earth policy (he could not get consensus from those whose earth would be scorched, a problem that a mighty king of mighty warriors would not have had). And a mighty king of mighty warriors would not have tried to establish a scorched earth policy. On the other hand, in an atmosphere of "what can we do to stop this Roman military behemoth", a scorched earth policy is a practical approach likely to arise in a council setting. Consider, too, that Vercingetorix was able to appeal for help at Alesia, and all of Gaul responded ... this is in the vein of Gaulish reaction to their council and its leader at this most desperate time; but it doesn't really fit well with the translation of Vercingetorix as an omnipotent leader of mighty warriors.

24.178.228.14 (talk) 19:50, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unclear Antecedent

The next major battle at Gergovia resulted in a victory for Vercingetorix because Caesar was too anxious and had attacked instead of besieging and starving the city in standard Roman fashion. When Vercingetorix thought Caesar was in retreat (which he did not intend because it might have ruined his career) he abandoned the cautious tactics he had adopted before and attacked head on. Due to losses he had to retreat and moved to another stronghold, Alesia.

It's a bit confusing to me. -rayluT 02:13, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images from other wiki sites

There is a good image on the French site http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Coin_Vercingetorix.jpg Is it usualtocopy itto the encommons, or to link - (and if so, how is it linked?) --Nantonos 12:16, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

That's a great Image, I've added it in. I don't know where is the best place to put it, but for the moment I've just stuck it in the History section. Thanks for finding the picture Nantonos. --Hibernian 02:35, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
There is a lot of text content that could be brought across (translated) from the French article too. Google Translate tool can assist this. --Peter Campbell Talk! 01:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] inappropriate text on page

I´ve just created my account and due to my lack of experience dare not touch the actual page yet, but someone could take the "YOUSUCkYOUSUCKYou SuCK" texts of the article. They appear at the moment between "History" and "memorial"

HraHattu 07:21, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah that's just Vandalism (happens all the time), someone has already fixed it. --Hibernian 18:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

They should have done that to George W. Bush and Richard Cheney instead —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.83.138.179 (talk) 22:29, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] pronunciation

the article states that [wɜːkɪŋˈɛtoɹɪks] is how it was pronounced in Gaulish... did Gaulish really have [ɹ] instead of [r]? --Krsont 03:08, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


[wɜːɹkɪŋˈɛtoɹɪks] I agree that this supposedly phological rendering of the name is inapropriate. Both vocalism and ɹ seem to represent US-English pronunciation. There are no reasons for us to assume that Gaulish had the approximant ɹ as the phonological realisation of 'r'. It is also unnecessary to enter a ɜː (lengthened shwa, cf. turn [tɜːɹn]) as the first vowel; this is an English sound law, not a Celtic one. The same is true for the equation "short i -> ɪ", which is not an universal rule, but again a primarily English sound law. However, as far as we can reconstruct Celtic phonology (and it's representation in the Latin alphabet), it is very likely that the w, the k and the ŋg/ŋ are correct. For other sounds (especially vowel colour), one should opt for the most neutral graphemes, as it is almost impossible to determine how exactly an Arvernian would have rendered the name. So I am going to be bold and change it into [werkiŋgˈetoriks], which enters "neutral" vowel sounds where we could only guess the true phonetic value. To put it in the words of stark raving mad Queen Bess: "Hope you're not too miffed." ;-) Trigaranus 16:40, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edits of Introduction

Hope no one minds, I just added a touch to the introduction as that it seemed to need a few words to sum up the article a bit more. --24.20.118.184 00:30, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


[edit] History

While this is a good article, it seems to somewhat begin in the middle of an idea, almost as if it was clipped from an article about good ol' Gaius. This is completely understandable as that he really only exists in historic contexts as a foil to Caesar, but I suggest that perhaps we edit this by mentioning Vercingetorix from the get go.

Isn't there anything we know about his early life as a Gaulish nobleman? This article seems only to jump in where Caesar crops up then follows his extremely short life from there. Would it not be better renamed to a more fitting title. Maybe something like The Rebellion of Vercingetorix? Rick-Levitt Talk Contribs 21:46, 16 October 2007 (UTC)