Talk:Venerable Order of Saint John

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This article is part of WikiProject Orders, Decorations, and Medals, a collaborative effort to improve, organise, and standardise Wikipedia's coverage of national honours systems. For guidelines and a participants list see the project page. You can discuss the project at its talk page

The article is original and is based on original research. Dr Michael Foster.

I increased the amount of information on this Order and sited my information as the last two outside references on the page. I also added three pictures to the site. ESQ24

The statement that the postnominals associated with the Order of St. John are only used within the Order is incorrect, though they do not indicate rank on the Scale of Precedence, as correctly stated here. See the discussion about this on the talk page of the British Honours article. I have revised the statement in this article. 66.156.107.108

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[edit] Russian Order

I have recently been doing research into soap opera actress Ruth Warrick and from a book published in 1992 I have found her listed as "Dame of Honour and Merit by the Imperial Russian Order of Saint John of Jerusalem Ecumenical Foundation". I assume she got this when she traveled to Russia circa 1991 as part of a "Global Forum" which met with Gorbachev about environmental problems. Can anyone tell me more about this ? Dowew 02:37, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Badge pic

I seriously doubt that Image:CrossofVOSJ.jpg is licenced under GFDL. In fact it says right under that image on that website on the desc. page, "Copyright (c) 2002 Order of Saint John. Priory in USA." Greentubing 08:48, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article Name...

Greetings,

I was wondering if anyone can explain why this article is entitled Order of St John. It seems to me that it would be better to use its full title or a longer abbreviation (Venerable Order of Saint John, perhaps). It just seens that there is no reason why the British Order should have the title that makes other believe it is THE order of Saint John, even when there are many many others. For example, the German Alliance order is known by its full name of Balley Brandenburg des Ritterlichen Ordens Sankt Johannis vom Spital zu Jerusalem.--Evadb 10:31, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Any other thoughts on this question since I posed it a couple months ago?--Eva db 08:44, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The move seems sensible, insofar as I have grasped the situation. However, there are a huge number of pages which still link to Order of St. John. These will all need disambiguation carried out. - Crosbiesmith 15:20, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

How about something with an article for each of these:

  • Alliance of Orders of St John
  • Order of Malta
The Four Main Protestant Orders
  • Balley Brandenburg ("Johanniterorden")
  • Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem
  • Johanniterorden I Sverige
  • Johanniter Orde in Nederland
The Four non-German Commanderies of the Bailiwick of Brandenburg
  • Swiss Commandery of the Order of St John
  • French Commandery of the Order of St John
  • Hungarian Commandery of the Order of St John
  • Finnish Commandery of the Order of St John

If we had an article for each of the starred items, that should cover the topic pretty well. The origins of the Hospitaller Orders in general could either be covered under the SMOM or possibly under the alliance.--dave-- 05:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

That looks like a very nice proposal, dave. I will try to help you move/make these articles as time permits. Does that look good to you, Crosbiesmith?--Eva bd 21:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I've got some excess time on my hand these days, so I thought I'd bring up this issue of organization again. Nothings seems to have been resolved last time around. The family of Orders of St John is confusing. There is a good deal of chaos in their organization on Wikipedia. The originally proposal by User:Boven (who now seems to be inactive) has been modified slightly. I'd like to see the articles written and organized thusly:

  • Knights Hospitaller(covering the general broad history of the order from its beginnings in the Holy Land to present)
  • Alliance of Orders of St John(a description of the structure and purpose of this group)
  • Order of Malta(the catholic order with extended history from the beginnings to present)
The Four Main Protestant Orders
The Four non-German Commanderies of the Bailiwick of Brandenburg
  • Swiss Commandery of the Order of St John(Switzerland)
  • French Commandery of the Order of St John(France)
  • Hungarian Commandery of the Order of St John(Hungary)
  • Finnish Commandery of the Order of St John(Finland)

I think that an organization this way would be helpful. We could also add a category such as [[Category:St John Orders]] or something like that to group them all together, as well as a possible template showing their relationships. What say ya'll?--Eva bd 19:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

  • In an effort to keep the discussion in one place, how about we do all the discussing here.--Eva bd 19:17, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

How does this look for a possible template to be used to navigate between the various orders of saint john:

v • d • e
Orders of Saint John
General Information
Knights Hospitaller · Alliance of Orders of St John
Catholic Order
Protestant Orders
Brandenburg Commanderies
Swiss Commandery of the Order of St John · French Commandery of the Order of St John · Hungarian Commandery of the Order of St John · Finnish Commandery of the Order of St John

{{Saint John Orders}}

I'm not sure how best to list each order's name and there obviously a lot of red links, but any suggestions are more than welcome.--Eva bd 18:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

The name of this article seems to me to be a little artificial and not reflective of real usage - I can't find any citations of the Order being referred to as simply the "Venerable Order of Saint John". We should either use its full name (ie Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem), or the most commonly used short version, with appropriate disambiguation in parentheses (eg Order of St John (England)). --Kwekubo (talk) 19:28, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Order of St John Ribbon

Hello! Thanks for putting the ribbon of the VOSJ on the page. I'm not sure it is entirely necessary, though, as the actual ribbon is shown immediately above it in the photograph. Would you be terribly offended if I removed your addition?--Eva bd 12:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Eva - I moved your question to this talk page for the sake of keeping track of it... I placed the ribbon picture on this page for the sake of completeness more than anything. For many orders, it is not immediately obvious what the ribbon of the order is that would be worn when full regalia is not worn (e.g., see Order of Merit or Order of St Michael and St George). I was actually researching what each ribbon was for the Australian Honours Order of Precedence, and as I went through uploading various images, I have been including the ribbons on the appropriate medal/order page. However, if you feel that it is obvious, then feel free to delete. Of course, whilst I was not completely surprised to see what the ribbon turned out to be (after having seen the pic of the insignia on this page), I still couldn't put my hand on my heart and guarantee it. PalawanOz 13:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Fair enough. I'm OK with it staying. Thanks.--Eva bd 13:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name and disambiguation

Hi, I'm doing some link-fixing on the disambiguation page Order of St John and see from the discussion above that there are several pages that you list that might usefully be added to that page - there are only 4 listed so far. Hope this will help cover Crosbiesmith's concerns as well.

BTW I like the template and think it should go a long way towards sorting out from the understanding and disambiguation angles. Think that should probably go onto the disambiguation page too. Good luck in your endeavours...Abbeybufo (talk • contribs)