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Contents 1 Capitalization of Vin 2 Source of NA standard? 3 Model Year 4 Should source code be in this article? 5 Classic Car VIN Decoding 6 External links 7 Who assigns VINs? 8 No secrets in VIN 9 Redirect from "VIN Number" 10 Rewrite 10.1 Check bit 10.2 Major content deletions 10.2.1 Finalizing these changes 10.3 How can one know model year from VIN? 10.4 Free VIN reports

[edit] Capitalization of Vin

Why is Vehicle Identification Number written in capital letters? Michael Hardy 22:53, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Probably to emphasize the initials / acronym. I don't believe this is compulsory. Nessalc 05:29, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)

It's a proper title and a legal term in the US.--TGC55 23:57, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Source of NA standard?

At this writing, the article states, "In North America, a more stringent (but compatible) system is used." What exactly is this system and who defines it? —LarryGilbert 00:04, 2004 Dec 28 (UTC)

The Society of Automotive Engineers oversees the NA standard: SAE VIN page --SFoskett 16:29, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)

No, the SAE only administers the WMI portion of the USA VIN on behalf of the US government's NTHSA. The reason why the VIN is used in the USA is down to US federal Regulation 49CFR565. I have no idea why it was written that the USA VIN system is "more stringent" than any other, as I had thought all 17-digit VIN systems used a check digit. Maybe it was meant that the other systems allow manufacturers more leeway to determine the content of some of the fields? JZH 14:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Model Year

Does anybody know what they're planning on doing after the 2009 model year, when the alphanumeric space for that runs out? *Dan T.* 01:46, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Start over at A and repeat the same sequence, according to: http://www.autofacts.ca/classics/vininfo.htm#17digitVIN *jw* 216.183.126.166 21:39, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Confirmed by the applicable US government regulation, here: 49CFR565.6 JZH 14:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The US law states that no two vehicles created within 30 years of each other will share a VIN Corey Salzano (talk) 14:48, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Should source code be in this article?

The source code for check digit calculation in several programming languages seems jarringly out of place in this article. I think it would be more fitting to move that to a separate article and linking to that from here. Objections? -- 206.183.122.101 20:20, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

If you feel the need to provide a repository of source code in Wikipedia, then move it to another article. I would remove it altogether. --Mormegil 07:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Source code is relevant here for the reasons anonymous described below. Also see Amortization schedule. Corey Salzano 19:44, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I had added the {{howto}} template, hoping that knowledgeable editors would shift the article away from such a narrow aspect of the vehicle identification number to a more general, encyclopedic treatment. What is the history of the VIN? How did it develop? Why did it develop? How has it fared? How has it been used? None of those aspects are covered much, if at all. While obviously the editors of the article find the current content the most useful and comprehensive, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, first and foremost, and should provide broad, general, balanced overviews of the subjects indicated in the titles. I don't feel that amortization schedule article is a good example of a quality encyclopedic article, and I think that it suffers from many of the same problems I perceive with this article. There are other Wikimedia projects for this sort of stuff, notably Wikibooks. Dancter 18:47, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Here is some history.[1] Corey Salzano 13:23, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

That was foolish to remove the code. Some of the code had more detail than your remaining summation, and the purpose of VINs is validation and decoding. Providing validation implementation examples is what people need from a good article, just like they need the table of decoding keys and values. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.15.30.156 (talk • contribs) 21:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)}

[edit] Classic Car VIN Decoding

The free site Decode This provides VIN decoding services for VINs previous to 1980 which the currently listed site does not provide. I think it should be included in the external links. Chronosafe 23:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

You do not need permission to add a link ever. If it is related, assume it is permitted per Snowball unless you have reason to think otherwise. Good link EvanCarroll 06:47, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Pending the link-war I requested no more external links, this is because you aren't the only source that allows free vin decoding which you arguably don't have as you offer a paid vin-report too. I feel you've failed to establish either an exceptional or noteworthy product but that only you compete at some level. Let's DMOZ link the vin-decoding services so as not to turn this into a push for third party products. See WP:Snowball, WP:Conflict of interest. I should come off and say, I'm currently employed at Dealermade. There are two commercial vin decoding services that might warrant inclusion into another article per Comparison of foobar convention. They are Jato more oversees and Chrome America's 600lb gorilla - at Dealermade we use Chrome. If you would like to start a Comparison of Commercial VIN Decoding services than more power to you - I might even help. Though I'm not sure that article would evade a deletion request. EvanCarroll 20:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External links

Who put the no more links comments on this article? Corey Salzano 18:34, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Here we are, a month later and still no responses. Why do the two VIN decoding services on this article have exclusive external link privilege and no more links are allowed? Someone please point me to the discussion that resulted in this. Thanks! Corey Salzano 19:55, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

There was no talk page discussion. I took the liberty of adding the template after noticing a particular pattern of editors dumping in links to their own sites. Wikipedia is not a comprehensive directory of links, and before I did a general sweep of the section, it was filled with redundant links, all serving virtually the same purpose. I had replaced them all with the link to the National Transportation Library page, hoping that it would be enough, and would keep editors from complaining about unfair treatment. Bollar indicated in an edit summary that the NTL link didn't provide any links to free VIN decoders, and among the ones I had removed, Autobaza seemed to be the most useful, so they added that back in. I was hoping that editors would take the initiative to decide amongst themselves which few VIN decoder links were most appropriate. That never happened. I had reverted one or two link additions that I felt were more about promoting a site than adding something beneficial to the article. The AnalogX link managed to remain in because I wasn't paying attention to the article at the time, and figured it wasn't a problem, since no-one removed it. Dancter 18:47, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I think this would be a good candidate to add as an external source -- and it could be used as a reference for the article (since it needs some reliable third-party citations) -- a VIN decoding pdf file put out by the Mitchell auto repair documentation organization. — CZmarlin 18:19, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Here's an external site with some information on vin decoding. I think it should be added. VIN decoding info —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kokopoko (talk • contribs) 21:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC) On-line VIN decoder —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.114.160.138 (talk) 18:00, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Who assigns VINs?

The article needs to say something about the procedure by which a vehicle acquires a VIN. There must be some organization responsible for this. On a related point, we should also specify explicitly which countries are involved in the system. Do all cars in the world acquire a VIN when they leave the factory, or is a VIN only issued when the car enters the United States or some larger group of countries?

Most people in the UK are not familiar with VINs, because a UK car registration number ("license plate" in US terms) is assigned permanently to the car, and not to an owner. Thus the number on the plate performs the same role as a VIN in the US. However, I do not know whether cars in the UK are required to have a VIN in addition to the UK registration. Mtford 02:05, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

UK registration numbers are not assigned "permanently" to a particular vehicle; they can be re-assigned through the DVLA (for a fee, of course). Having done this myself, I am fairly comfortable stating such as a fact! Prior to the adoption of the VIN in the UK (at least on motorbikes), "frame numbers" were used to give each vehicle a unique identity. Such numbers were assigned by each manufacturer, using their own numbering systems, at the time of manufacture. (It is possible to purchase a replacement motorbike frame, btw, and these are blank. I.e., no VIN and no frame number--I once purchased one from a Honda dealer.)--JZH 15:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

To finally answer this properly, a vehicle is assigned a VIN by its manufacturer in accordance with the regulations of the country that vehicle is to be sold in. Not all countries require a vehicle to carry a VIN, but most do as it is the only internationally-accepted way of permanently identifying an entire vehicle.

The structure of a VIN is based on ISO 3779 and 3780, but the US (under federal title 49/V/595) and EU require a slightly modified system involving a check digit, plant code, and year. The manufacturer allocates a compatible VIN to each vehicle before it leaves the factory. Some manufactures allocate a US/EU-style VIN to all vehicles regardless of destination, others just give ISO 3779 VINs to non US/EU bound vehicles - for example, my Mitsubishi Triton, built in Thailand for Australia, has the VIN MMB0NK7706Dnnnnnn, which includes (at the manufacturer's discretion in this case) the model year, but no check digit.

I can't say either whether the UK requires VINs, but most manufactures issues all vehicles VINs for accountability purposes. The SA-SM section of the WMI is given to UK manufacturers (Lotus, for example, is SCC), so...

Jb17kx (talk) 04:39, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] No secrets in VIN

I just removed the following statement on "secret" VIN numbers (and move the reference down to a relevant place):

In the United States a confidential vehicle identification number is used with certain major assemblies of a vehicle and is known only to designated persons within the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the National Automobile Theft Bureau. United States Federal VIN Requirements (Title 49, Chapter V, Part 565)

The reference says nothing about the FBI, nothing about anything being confidential... Simply a reporting requirement of how to "decode" the VIN. Ann O'nyme 16:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I looked into it a bit more: In the United States a confidential vehicle identification number is used on some (most?) vehicles... See confidential vehicle identification number - Google Search. e.g.:

• "Level II inspections consist of matching the public vehicle identification number, a secondary vehicle identification number and the confidential vehicle identification number to the vehicle ownership to determine the identity of the vehicle." [2]
• "If the confidential number does not exist, a West Virginia vehicle identification number will be issued." [3]
• Access to that number seams to depend on state laws.
• It looks like the "secret" is what "confidential VIN" goes with the "public VIN". E.g. see the story in this case: [4].
• I can't find what vehicles should have one. (My guess: all mass-produced vehicles.)

Any thoughts on this? Ann O'nyme 17:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect from "VIN Number"

Though redundant, many people call it a VIN number. I think searching "VIN Number" should redirect here.

Raditude 00:09, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

Let's rewrite this, it blows EvanCarroll 07:21, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Check bit

The check bit has been totally redesigned tell me what you think here. I'd like to link this to maybe a wikibook, or something of the sort where we can dump up source code in various languages. If nothing else this is a good exercise for novices in programming. EvanCarroll 07:16, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

There is a check bit program that allows people to authenticate the vin number via check bit. http://lucasmanual.com/vin Soon the source code will be on sourceforge. 30 lines of code. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lszyba1 (talk • contribs) 01:24, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I am curious, is this really supposed to be called a check bit? As a computer programmer, when I see the word bit, I think of something that must be either 0 or 1. I almost "fixed" this in the article, but I thought maybe there was another meaning of the word bit in this context that I am not familiar with. I looked here: Bit (disambiguation) but did not see anything that supported usage as in this article. If the usage is nonstandard, and we need some way of distinguishing the numeric value from the alphanumeric coding, I would recommend using the word "character" instead of "bit" (see Character (computing)). CosineKitty (talk) 16:13, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

It is, in fact, a checksum character. From memory, it is calculated in the same manner as the checksum character in an ISBN number. There are 11 possible values, and these are represented by the numbers 0 to 9 and the letter X. --Athol Mullen (talk) 01:51, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I just revised to use check digit consistently, and to link to the pre-existing article for that term, which happens to link back to this VIN article already. I also reworded to indicate that a matching check digit does not ensure accuracy, but a mismatch does indicate a definite mistake. CosineKitty (talk) 20:57, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Major content deletions

Any objections to deleting the lists of redundant and excessive manufacture codes, these should be moved to a wikibook or the like. Manuals are outside of the scope of articles, and don't tell you how a "Vin" works. I would like to add I have no objection to keeping 5 random examples of each code in this article, but it is excessive as is. EvanCarroll 07:21, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I regret missing this deletion. I refer lots of motorcycle enthusiasts to this page to learn the difference between "manufactured in" and "assembled in". Now that all the manufacturer codes are gone this article is less effective in explaining that. Corey Salzano (talk) 14:50, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. As someone who works with vehicles, I found the information very helpful.THD3 00:59, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Has EvanCarroll made a VIN Wikibook since the deletion? If not, I don't see why this article isn't restored. Corey Salzano (talk) 22:59, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

As to a wikibook: Not over VINs. But I disagree as to restoring this article. WP:NOT, wikipedia is not the place to reproduce standardized codes found elsewhere on the web., The whole section was either unsourced, or sourced from a single source {{onesource}}, and so I can't agree to reviving this. Having 90% of the article clobbered with codes, is also a violation of WP:UNDUEWEIGHT. As you have tacitly hinted at, WP is not the place for this... but rather WB, which you are more than welcome to explicate and reproduce that information there. On the flip side, I have created a book about Dealer Management Systems, so if you work in the industry you're all more than welcome to help collaborate on that with me. IMHO this isn't a just project for a wiki* anyway, but rather a sourceforge project of a bunch of flat-text files someone can use to load a database. EvanCarroll (talk) 23:54, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for following up, Evan. I don't want to debate whether or not Wiki policies support your deletions--we all know the information is never really deleted. I do want to point out that the article had contained the information you deleted for longer than a year, and more than a few editors contributed to building the tables of WMI regions and manufacturer prefixes. There might be more support for the information than against, but we can always write a new article and connect it to this one if more editors support your viewpoint.

I'm not aware of another single place on the web where the WMI codes were reproduced from. I referred to this article often because I thought it was the only place they could be found in the aggregate. I do believe they should be well sourced if revived--do you know of any such sources?

You stated that you work for DealerMade, a company that probably profits from VIN code products and dealer management systems. Have you thought about WP:COI when editing here and creating the Dealer Management System article? Specifically, "(Avoid) Editing articles related to you, your organization, or its competitors, as well as projects and products they are involved with"

I feel that the work of a lot of editors was flushed by a single opinion. The deletions occurred less than 48 hours after you started this talk page topic--leaving little time for (this) discussion. Corey Salzano (talk) 00:47, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I do work for Dealermade, and I don't mind you raising a COI allegation, but we (the company) do in no way shape or form profit from VIN-decoding. The VIN information we use comes from series of CSV dumps from Chrome that we pay a per-dealership license for. Which, while I won't disclose prices, I would imagine is the largest operating expense we have. You're missing the objection here though there are many sources or books on this stuff already, and it is jarringly out of place in prose. Case and point, that book is 285pg! Where does that vin information go? Personally, all of the /codes$/ articles on wikipedia should be {{prod}} for deletion and moved into a wikibook. It is getting ridiculous -- an analogy would be to place all of the nutrient information for a Candy bar on the candy bar page.

Sorry it is important to realize the greater goal of the encyclopedia, which is to not appear as a technical manual. The inclusion of these codes undoubtedly forced the article in that direction. My 48 respite is protected by WP:BOLD, I'd be more than happy to RfM this. But, I should point out this is exactly why WikiBooks was created. For articles whose depth surpassed that of a general encyclopedia. How about if I create a WikiBook for this to get you started? My goal isn't to lose editors, it is to keep the articles under control, I can create a wikibook and delete the vin-coded information that exists in WP and make everyone happy. I'll do it tonight. EvanCarroll (talk) 01:35, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Corey, I'm going to try to be civil, I find it interesting you allege WP:COI in my case, even after I publicly exonerate myself, and yet, you Corey Salzano run Tachticaltechnique.com in addition to the previous complaint of spamming wikipedia with links to company run projects. It is also interesting that you pulled off some visitors per your own traffic chart at http://www.tacticaltechnique.com/i/yahooAnswersWins.gif. EvanCarroll (talk) 03:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Evan, there were no mentions of any of my websites in Wikipedia until you just referenced one, so let me thank you for that. How am I avoiding public disclosure by using my real name as my user name? I have no secrets. I was accused of WP:COI and stopped the activity that an editor objected to. That's the difference between our situations here--I took other editors' advice and you have not.

The image from my site that you mentioned has no context here. You have no idea what site those traffic stats are for, but yet you have already assumed that I have spammed its URL on wikipedia. Mistake. You are jumping to conclusions because I aggravated you with WP:COI. Your company rents/resells the information we are discussing, and now that you have admitted that, you should stop manipulating this information on wikipedia. Corey Salzano (talk) 14:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Corey Salzano, What makes this all the more amusing is how disillusioned you are. I've created a WB simply to appease the users here! The first method of unifying all of that information we pay a license fee for. I'm acting within the bounds of Wikipedia, I've appeased those that have opposed the content deletion - and I've submitted an AfD with a list of the prodded and contested sites. I disclaimed WP:COI, which doesn't even say I must not edit any conflicts; it only instructs on how to edit them morally: which I have. I still do not agree to your allegation, there are no conflicts here. But I realize I'm susceptible to the allegations.

You on the other hand, run an SEO site for dealers. With an undeniable chart that tells me you're using Wikipedia for traffic. As well as motoverse.com, which is a site that produces a vin decoder. And here is the big kicker, Motoverse.com actually uses chrome's data just like we do.

Lastly, your WP:COI dispute which you have acknowledge as valid occurred in June 14, 2007, and yet amusingly the page which claims traffic from Wikipedia was authored October 22, 2007. Four months later and you're still mooching/getting traffic Wikipedia... You're dismissed now Corey. Try transparency next time. EvanCarroll (talk) 15:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

You're still making stupid assumptions. This is silly.

Motoverse isn't my site and does not make me money.

Yes, I agreed with the COI months ago and stopped adding links to that site.

That COI and my personal website are not related. You should stop drawing a connection between the two websites because one does not exist. FUD is not the answer, Evan. You're making that part up.

I'm not here to read your condescending comments. "You're dismissed now" is childish. I haven't tried to insult or lie about you. I guess you aren't able to "be civil" as you advise everyone else.

Corey Salzano (talk) 16:37, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

As long as there are links to the Wikibook articles, that works for me.THD3 (talk) 02:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Excellent, all is done b:Vehicle Identification Numbers (VIN codes). I just proded all ?eleven? pages on wikipedia. Happy editing EvanCarroll (talk) 02:26, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree, Corey. The VIN code information should be restored, but placing it into a separate article is also a valid option. I'll wait one day and if there is no further objection, will restore the information.THD3 (talk) 14:30, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Finalizing these changes

For the deletion of content from this article, and VIN Codes* and the moving and unification at wikbooks: Please weigh in at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/VIN Codes with your input. Thanks. EvanCarroll (talk) 08:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How can one know model year from VIN?

Is there any site or any online resource from where one can get the year of manufacture by entering the vehicle identification number and the manufacturer? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shafiqurrahman (talk • contribs) 19:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC) Take a look at: VIN checker

[edit] Free VIN reports

Is there a website on the Internet that releases free VIN reports?

ICE77 -- 98.210.117.250 (talk) 19:36, 16 February 2008 (UTC)