Talk:Vegetable oil economy

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This article looks like a one man job, and has the associated slight bias.

No doubt. I have tried to be objective but one person won't see from as many sides as many. Over time other people will edit it and make it more objective. Any help is appreciated. Another problem is that many of the references are to web pages and not the best primary sources. I don't think any of the information is significantly wrong, but Wikipedia is better when it has primary sources as references. Again, over time I expect this to get better. Vincecate 11:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

"Note though that when photovoltaics technology was younger, more energy went into making solar cells than they would be producing in their lifetime!" doesn't sound very encyclopedic to me 13:49, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Changed it. See if it sounds better to you. Vincecate 05:18, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 A few things 2 Original research 3 POV and unnecessary 4 Which is carbon neutral when carbon used twice 5 Centralised vs. decentralised production

[edit] A few things

Okay, made a few small changes, but overall a LOT of work is needed - no offence to the author. Many citations are poor and link to unverified websites, not original research or well established information. Many claims are just personal beliefs, with no actual basis! (Point in case the sections on Safety etc). My suggestion is to go over the biodiesel article and look for references etc. I must say though that this article would probably be best combined with the biodiesel article, as they detail nearly the same thing. Best of luck. Halogenated 01:46, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Can you backup the claim that the biodegradability of vegetable oil is similar to petroleum-based diesel fuel? Diesel does not smell edible.Vincecate 20:50, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Diesel is poision: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002753.htm

I am assuming that biodiesel is not edible either (do you know otherwise?). The article was correct when it said that vegetable oil is edible. If humans can eat it all kinds of other things can too. This is more biodegradable than a poison. I can put vegetable oil in my mouth and biodegrade it in under 24 hours, not decades. Vincecate 20:53, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Biodegradability has nothing to do with toxicity. Vegetable oil doesn't get broken down the same way as in the human gut when it spills. It must be either endogenously or exogenously broken down by organisms, generally bacteria or fungi. Long chained hydrocarbons are tricky for microorganisms to break down, espcially under nutrient limiting conditions such as in most aquifers. I work for an environmental consulting firm, have an MSc. in this field, and happen to know first hand that vegetable oil spills are still quite difficult to clean up, and the oil difficult to biodegrade. I admit, I need to put references in place, but you don't have referenece for what you state in the first place. Vegetable oil coats and ruins feathers and cause birds to die from hypothermia and an inability to obtain food just as bad as diesel fuels. IT also coats soil particles, and contaminates aquifers similarily. It can induce the growht of potentially dangerous organisms in water supplies. The main toxic components of diesel fuel are BTEX components, and these are in much less significant levels than in gasoline or other light-weight hydrocarbon mixes. Long- chained alkanes in general are not toxic. I am not trying to downplay the toxicity of diesel fuel, but it degrades similarily to vegetable oils under subsurface conditions (albeit somewhat more poorly, as the alkane chains are fairly stable).

Here is a basic news article link

http://news-info.wustl.edu/tips/page/normal/117.html

I will find some more appropriate citations for the matter. As for the saftey of biodiesel, biodiesel is the esterised form of the long-chain fatty acids after removal of the glycerol when breaking up triglycerides. I would imagine the toxicity would be not much different than for vegetable oil. but I am not aware of this.

Halogenated 21:40, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Here is what I stated in the first place, "Vegetable oil is safer to use than gasoline, diesel, hydrogen, ethanol, or methanol as it has a higher flash point. It is biodegradable, so a spill is not such a problem. It is not toxic, in fact it is edible. The standard cooking oil is a mixture of vegetable oils, and it is safe to put in a pan over an open flame in your kitchen which would not be safe with most other fuels."

I am still not clear what you think was so wrong with this. I agree that it is better to talk about a lower toxicity as you have the article now. And I guess my "not such a problem" might be glossing over problems to birds etc., so agree it is better as you have edited it. So while I agree you have improved these parts, I don't understand what was false or needing a reference to support it.

As for relative biodegradability and how long it takes to degrade vegetable oil, I am still looking but have found a few things that make me think your claim that it is about the same as diesel is wrong.

Here is an article that says grease made from vegetable oil has good biodegradability: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/112468763/ABSTRACT?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Here is one that talks about which strains of bacteria can degrade vegetable oil: http://www.springerlink.com/content/u6261g7763587232/

Here is one that talks about using vegetable oil to help degrade other hydrocarbons: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6THB-49C5FGS-2&_user=10&_coverDate=06%2F30%2F2004&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=1f082e06fa75ae5b1b3f19b366aa4c1a

Here is one using biodiesel to clean up an oily shoreline: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V74-498TSMT-F&_user=10&_coverDate=01%2F31%2F2004&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=b23563f4d02ad58456c88e763a4c6e37

The important thing to me about this wikipedia article is that vegetable oil and vegetable oil derived fuels could be practical green fuels for the whole world economy. I think it is much more likely than "hydrogen economy" which gets to much attention. This is a different topic than "biodiesel" alone, and I think needs a separate article.

I do appreciate your help on this article.

Vincecate 04:35, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Here is another article that says, "The results demonstrate that all the biodiesel fuels are “readily biodegradable”. Moreover, in the presence of REE, the degradation rate of petroleum diesel increased to twice that of petroleum diesel alone." http://asae.frymulti.com/abstract.asp?aid=17277&t=2

Vincecate 04:47, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

This is good, let's work to incorporate more of this stuff into the article itself. Vegetable oil takes longer to degrade than biodiesel due to the need for organisms to remove the glycerol first, which they much prefer to consume over the fatty acid chains. I will do my best to find some material, I have access to academic journals through my previous university. I don't mean to come across as confrontational, I'm just trying to be constructively critical, something wikipedia needs a fair bit more of! As for the original statement, the issue is more that it reads more like a casual conversation than an encyclopedia entry. That, and the fact the vegetable oils spills are in fact a big deal. The fact that it is non-toxic does not mean that it is not an ecological problem.Halogenated 14:48, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Another thing is that oil on birds feathers and biodegradability info probably belongs in the "environmental effects" section and not the "safety" section. Vincecate 03:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed - done and done. Halogenated 04:52, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Looks good. Vincecate 02:20, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Original research

It looks like article makes lot of false claims. Which reliable sources claim Vegetable oil will replace fossil fuels. Whether anybody has estimated how much oil can be produced using Vegetable oils vis a vis current fossil fuel production. Who has coined this term? Is it a fantasy of people or scientific prediction? --Indianstar 15:50, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

The article is talking about the potential to replace fossil fuels, not asserting that it will. If you look at Biodiesel around the world you can see that vegetable oil converted to biodiesel is really replacing some fossil fuel already. Some places have said biodiesel is the fastest growing alternative fuel. I think hydrogen economy first coined this convention of using "economy" and there are a number of articles that use this convention in Wikipedia (early in this article it mentions some others). Exactly what claims do you think are false? Vincecate 22:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Hydrogen economy is the word used by many reliable sources like How Stuff works. I have not seen Vegetable oil economy being mentioned by any reliable sources. When we talk about "economy" it should replace major portion of fossil fuel which is the case in Hydrogen economy. As far as I know no major scientist has predicted that Vegetable oil will replace major part of fossil fuels. First few statements of article looks like original research to me. We can rename article as "Vegetable oil fuel". Let us not invent new term in wikipedia. --Indianstar 03:58, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

While hydrogen economy was first, ethanol economy and methanol economy are also terms used in reliable sources. Wikipedia also reports on lithium economy and liquid nitrogen economy following in this convention. If you look at biodiesel around the world you can see how real vegetable oil as biodiesel is. There are pumps all over the place. I don't think there is a single hydrogen pump open for cars from the general public anyplace. So the economic impact of vegetable oil economy is far far greater than hydrogen economy so far. And it is growing fast, while hydrogen economy still looks like it will not start for a long time. There is already a Vegetable oil used as fuel article but the focus is not on the potential to replace fossil fuels, which is a different issue. All of the "xxx economy" articles are looking at that question. Vegetable oil economy is real and worthy of reporting on and this seems the natural name for this topic given the other xxx economy names. It is not some idea I made up, it is a real thing happening in the world. Vincecate 23:53, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

As for reliable sources predicting vegetable oil economy will be significant, how about this one: "the use of vegetable oils for engine fuels may seem insignificant today but such oils may become, in the course of time, as important as petroleum and the coal-tar products of the present time." - Rudolf Diesel in 1912 Vincecate 00:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Can you show few reliable sources which uses this terminology. If third party sources does not use this word then it does not belong to wikipedia. I am not questioning its impact, feasibility etc. Later, I will look at other economy articles and evaluate whether those terms are used by third party sources. Few sources I have come across gives impression that Vegetable oil as fuel is viable if we get cheap fossil fuel and subsidised agriculture. I appreciate your efforts for this article. I am only asking for name change.--Indianstar 02:20, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean "Few sources I have come across gives impression that Vegetable oil as fuel is viable if we get cheap fossil fuel and subsidised agriculture."? Vincecate 03:27, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

The vegetable oil economy includes using vegetable oil used as fuel, vegetable oil converted to biodiesel, and vegetable oil blends with diesel. A title of "Vegetable oil fuel" does not sound right to cover all of these, just the first article listed. Given the well established tradition of hydrogen economy, ethanol economy, and methanol economy, I think the current title is the natural name for this topic. Do you have another name you think is better? Vincecate 03:57, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV and unnecessary

Does a picture of an oil production/drilling platform really add anything to this section (try to ignore the fact that a cran is in use while a helicopter is about to land (Oy veh).)? All it says is: This is in oil platform. Eventually, it'll be dry. Show a graph or a quote. And give a source please. Ufwuct —Preceding comment was added at 00:17, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Which is carbon neutral when carbon used twice

I have edited "However, adding algaculture to a carbon emitting coal powerplant would not make it carbon-neutral unless the CO2 was permanently "captured" by burying the algae in the earth. In the case where the algae is used as an energy source, then the algaculture itself is carbon-neutral, however, it does not in anyway alter the net CO2 emissions, and so the powerplant's net carbon footprint is unchanged."

The problem is you could also argue that the carbon coming into the powerplant in the coal is balanced by the carbon leaving in the algae so that in fact it is the powerplant that is carbon neutral. It is kind of arbitrary to assign all the benefit to either the powerplant or to the transportation use. Seems more fair to assign half to each. Vincecate 11:54, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

There was duplication between the algae stuff under electricity generation and in the algae section so I put it all in the algae section. Vincecate 13:48, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Centralised vs. decentralised production

One reference does not work and the other goes to a bunch of articles but none of which seem to be about any centralized vs decentralized production debate. Is there really any such debate? Are there any better references to such a debate? If not I think this section should be removed. Vincecate (talk) 01:36, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Second call for a reference.Vincecate (talk) 18:06, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I have added more references / tried to fix references. I have been following developments of vegetable oil fuels in Europe for the best part of a decade and have seen these points often stated. Most good research on this subject area has been completed in Germany and the language barrier makes it hard for me to find good references - I'll post more as I find them.DOHill (talk) 14:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Some of your references are not in English and the others don't have any debate. So I removed the whole section. If there is such a debate it is a very small issue that I don't think needs to be covered here. Vincecate (talk) 15:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I do not see the reason for removing this section. From what I hear and see this is a real issue and I think an important one. Admittedly this debate is not often heard but I think it is important, particularly in relation to the sustainability of vegetable oil fuels and the recent backlash against large scale industrialised production of biofuels. Given time I can post more references. Why are you so keen to remove this information? DOHill (talk) 14:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Here are a couple http://www.oaklandinstitute.org/pdfs/BIOCOMBUSTIBLES-English.pdf http://oaklandinstitute.org/pdfs/biofuels_report.pdf there is a growing call for decentralised energy production the thing is those who are pro decentralised production do not have the budgets to push this debate into the mainstream. The broadly established centralised production has been funded / supported by companies and interests that are seeing large potential profits - however an ever growing number of reports are showing examples of centralised production to be unsustainable. DOHill (talk) 15:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)