Talk:Valkyrie (film)

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Valkyrie (film) article.
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[edit] Release date

The Internet Movie Database does not qualify as a source for the film's release date. IMDb always attaches a release year to all future films on the site, despite no announcement to support it. The existing Variety citations do not make any mention of the release date, so unless there is a follow-up citation, the release date has yet to be announced. —Erik (talk • contrib • review) - 16:21, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Note: An independent source has indicated the release date to be August 8, 2008. This should no longer be an issue. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 14:10, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citation for use

Casting rumors to keep an eye on. —Erik (talk • contrib • review) - 19:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Script review; probably not that useful right now. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 16:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Another trade paper's article about the Scientology issue. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 14:06, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Headlines. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 19:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
  • [(unreliable source - do not use) www.postchronicle.com/news/original/article_212108231.shtml Tom Cruise Gets Apology From German Official Who Wanted Him Banned]
Headline says it all, really. - Steve T • C 11:43, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not a new film

It would be good to include that an identical film has already been made in Germany - approx 3-4 years ago. 193.134.254.145 07:20, 26 June 2007 (UTC)Allison 26.06.07

I inserted an overview of earlier German movies, and started two articles which still contain a lot of German. -- Matthead discuß!     O       01:13, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
What is the film? It could probably be listed under July 20 Plot#Popular culture, not here. There's no independent comparison being made between this older film and the upcoming one. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 13:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388437/ - this ones pretty similar, based on the same "real" story..
I think it would be fine to mention the earlier film in this article. There is no limit on how many movies can be made about one historical event. 3 or 4 major films were made about the Titanic, for instance. Steve Dufour 16:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
BTW, the recreation of the event in the miniseries War and Remembrance was outstanding. Hard to see how Tom and Co. can top it. Steve Dufour 16:29, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's a good idea to list previous similar films in the newest film article -- it's clearly recentism and attempts to promote older film articles with this on-the-rise film article. If anything, a list of films related to July 20 Plot should be provided on that article, because Valkyrie is a stand-alone production; it's not related to the other films except in topic. Like I've mentioned, there's a more suitable place for that. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 01:31, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

The list of films based on July 20 Plot have been placed at that article. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 01:39, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Synopsis

Can anyone add a Synopsis section based on the synopsis paragraph in this? The reference is already used in the section for a few new cast members. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 11:29, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Nevermind -- I've included the section. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 13:41, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citations for use

These are from the German newspaper Der Spiegel, which may have more detail than current citations.

Should compare these to the Variety citations to see if there isn't any extra information. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 14:06, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

More headlines. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 03:56, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Tom Cruise's Valkyrie should be quite a ride - Probably too bloggish, but just placing it here. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 22:49, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Break

Headlines to include. In particular, the People.com citation mentions that Cruise took on the role based on his similarity with the protagonist's profile. As a result, we could implement this photo to support that text in Production. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 21:55, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Break 2

Headlines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Erik (talk • contribs) 04:43, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title?

According to IMDB as of 7/20/07, the movie's title has changed to "Rubicon". Should the article be update now, or later after it has been confirmed with other, more reliable sources?

Later. Nobody seems to know why IMDb changed the title, from what I've seen on sites and forums. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 10:50, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Yesterday's news in Germany stated that Rubicon is only a working title for the production. The release title will remain Valkyrie.—Eickenberg 13:59, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Do you have a headline available? It'd be nice to have something to cite in case editors come here and try to "update" the article. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 14:00, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I wish I knew. I was reading four newspapers in the café yesterday. I will see if they have the article online. —Eickenberg 14:05, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I have it. The article was based on a dpa announcement (German Press Agency), which was used by several newspapers. One is here. I translate the relevant passage: "According to a studio spokesman the project still bears the working title Valkyrie. For internal communications the name Rubicon is being used." So… the update: 1. internal communication title = Rubicon; 2. official working title = Valkyrie; 3. final title = n/a. IMDB is (obviously) wrong. —Eickenberg 14:15, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I've implemented the source. If I am missing any information from it, please feel free to edit! Thank you very much for the headline, as it will help explain matters regarding Rubicon. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 14:35, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure, Eickenberg, but I think we "fixed" IMDb. I submitted your information to IMDb, and now IMDb shows Valkyrie again. Could be coincidence, too. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 20:35, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Could be. The info was however from the dpa, which they acquired from a studio executive during a regular press conference, if I remember correctly at the film studios Babelsberg, where part of the film is being shot. But every film title is subject to change. —Eickenberg 19:06, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] German response

In updating the new cast entries with a better citation than MonstersandCritics.com, I also noted German newspapers' continued criticism of Cruise beyond the initial confusion before the start of production. So I've started a "German response" section that will probably be the norm, and I've attempted to write it to be as balanced as possible. I imported a paragraph from Production to German response, as the confusion has better placement in the latter than the former, it seemed. If there is any concerns about a balanced perspective or the accuracy of any of the information, feel free to initiate discussion here. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 14:36, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi Erik, I'm responding from the Neutrality Project. I like what you have so far. Do you think it would be necessary to inform readers of scientology's status in germany? It might explain the German response somewhat. You allude to it, but don't directly address it. (Although I can see the risk involved in doing so). Cheers, --Bfigura (talk) 05:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I've actually piped a link to Religion in Germany#Scientology in Germany under "masquerade of religion", but if a better piece of writing about this conflict could be found elsewhere on Wikipedia, the link could be updated. Or something else could be done to inform the reader better. Maybe I can expand an explanation from one of the citations to include more detail. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 13:18, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Eights and zeros

Probably synthesis to mention it here, but the release date of 8-8-08 cannot be a coincidence, because L. Ron Hubbard was obsessed with Eights and zeros: note the Scientology books Scientology: 88, Scientology 8-80, Scientology 8-8008, and Scientology 0-8. wikipediatrix 15:19, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I read about that as well. It can warrant inclusion if a reliable source makes a similar observation. Should be interesting if the media inquires filmmakers about the similarity, considering that Cruise is one of the heads of the film's distributor United Artists. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 15:31, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Patrick Wilson

Is Patrick Wilson in this or did IMDb get it wrong. He's been listed as starring in this for a while now, but it seems like this contradicts him starring in the Watchmen. annoynmous 04:36, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

He's in the film; I just added a July 26 citation about it, ironically the one that announced him being in Watchmen. I think he has a small role in the film because the press release for Valkyrie (seen here) lists many of the cast, but not Patrick Wilson himself. (One of the reasons I temporarily overlooked him until something valid surfaced.) Watchmen starts in October, so I'm sure he can finish finishing his small role by then. Thanks for the heads-up! —Erik (talk • contrib) - 11:20, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Small note to close this discussion: Patrick Wilson was originally attached to Valkyrie, but due to reasons explained in the article, he had to drop out. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 17:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cast list order

A minor point, but as it has not yet been determined which roles are the most prominent, would alphabetical order not be the most logical next choice? Best regards, Steve T • C 20:29, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, the picture in the article from the Daily Mail identifies the seven actors as the plotters, so I think that after Cruise, the following six could be listed in alphabetical order. Then the rest of them could be listed in a second alphabetical order. That sound good to anyone? I'm not sure about the prominence of the role of Stauffenberg's wife, and I wasn't sure about ranking David Bamber as Hitler higher due to the infamy. Other thoughts are welcome. It's not an easy list to sort, unfortunately. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 20:46, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
So true. I suppose there's no harm in leaving it as it is for now; it should be fine until more is known. As I say, it really is just a minor point. Best regards, Steve T • C 20:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I've re-organized part of the cast list to adhere to what was mentioned above, though I wasn't sure how to sort people like Eddie Izzard, Tom Wilkinson, and Stephen Fry. Another interesting issue -- when I describe the roles, should I use past or present tense? The citations for the roles' descriptions may be historical and not cinematical, so I wasn't sure if the descriptions I added for the plotters were appropriate. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 13:23, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The tense is the one I would have used, so I guess I agree with how you've worded it! One further point which has occurred to me upon reading the cast list is the issue of spoilers. Most people (I would hope!) know the outcome of the assassination plot, but perhaps not the individual actions and fates of the protagonists. Cruise's comments on Stauffenberg reveal a little about his character's destiny, so I've added the basic spoiler tag. I'll bow to your superior experience on this one, should you feel the need to remove it. Steve T • C 14:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
It's a tough call... makes me think of that cartoon in which people are standing in line to see Titanic, and an older couple comments on looking forward to seeing how the ship-sinking is displayed, and a teenage couple behind them shouts, "Hey, thanks a lot for ruining the movie!" Details of the July 20 Plot may not be well-known, but I think it's fairly common knowledge that Hitler was not assassinated by his own men. Maybe we can do without the quote temporarily? Just put comment markers around it until we can figure out an approach. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 15:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Done. As for spoilers in general, which will inevitably appear, yeah, I get that most people will (should) know the outcome of the assassination plot, just perhaps not the detail and the ultimate fates of those involved. Did they get away? Were they captured? Executed? These are all questions which should remain unanswered, or hit with a temporary spoiler tag. Steve T • C 16:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I restored visibility to the part about Cruise mimicking Stauffenberg's injuries -- shouldn't be a big deal. I think, though, that the actor's perspective of the real-life figure should either be restored at a later time or placed elsewhere. I'm not a huge fan of implementing spoiler tags. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 21:19, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
No, I know. Me neither, to be honest, which is why I subsequently removed the tag. It just struck me that, at this stage in the film's development at least, those visiting the article are likely to want to know about certain production details rather than be surprised with any plot (or perhaps more accurately in this case, character) outcomes. As for its eventual placement within the article, I would think the best place for most of this character information will be in the plot summary, leaving a relatively unadorned cast list in the traditional style in its place. Anyone who then reads the plot summary without having seen the film... well, that'll be their own fault. Steve T • C 21:37, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Release date

There still appears to be some confusion. A quick hunt on the Google News archive lists several recent stories which state the July release date (note, this is not a comprehensive list):

http://www.cinematical.com/2007/09/14/valkyrie-gets-the-ok-to-shoot-at-historic-german-site/ http://www.firstshowing.net/2007/09/05/first-look-the-7-conspirators-of-valkyrie/

However, just as many cite August:

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7008519781 http://film.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,,2152770,00.html

Where was the August date originally sourced from? Ah, never mind, I see it. Best regards, Steve T • C 08:15, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, I found a mention of the new release date in ComingSoon.net, which we originally cited for the initial release date. This should clear up any issues. Hopefully they'll explain a why, like at 3:10 to Yuma (2007 film)#Release. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 12:12, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] German vs Nazi

I've changed the descriptions of Ludwig Beck and Friedrich Olbricht from "Nazi General" back to to "German General". Please do not change this back unless you are able to provide a reference that shows that they were members of the NSDAP. If they were not members of the NSDAP, then they were not Nazis.

Compare with how they are described in their own Wikipedia articles:

Ludwig August Theodor Beck (June 29, 1880 – July 21, 1944) was a German general and the Chief of the General Staff of the Oberkommando des Heeres during the early years of the Nazi regime in Germany before World War II.

Friedrich Olbricht (4 October 1888 – 21 July 1944) was a German general and one of the plotters involved in the attempt to assassinate Adolf Hitler at the Wolfsschanze in East Prussia on 20 July 1944.

Rubisco 12:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I've no objection to this; the cited articles don't describe them as Nazis either. Best regards, Steve T • C 12:42, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Works for me, then. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 12:46, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Nazi is a political affiliation. Nazi with a lower case "n" means one who adhered to the ideology. Nazi with a capital "N" means one who is a "card carrying Nazi" who were part of the party.

So, was he a nazi or Nazi? Or neither?

-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.117.158.83 (talk) 05:30, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] “Planning” Operation Valkyrie

Staufenberg and his fellowers did not plan Operation Valkyrie, they modified it. Operation Valkyrie (or Walküre) was an operational plan made by the general staff to subdue unrests among the forced labourers with the use of reserve, educational, guard, and local stationed units of the Wehrmacht. The modification was intended to be used against SS-troops and regime-loyal units of the army after the successful assassination of Hitler. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.167.42.82 (talk) 09:23, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I suggest taking the official synopsis found here and writing it to be more accurate. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 16:32, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title's importance

There has been extremely unnecessary elaboration on the title of the film. My suggestion is to rewrite the Premise section based on the official synopsis, to which a link has been provided in the above section. Clarify the difference between Operation Valkyrie and the July 20 Plot within the constraints of the content provided there. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 16:34, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Headlines

Headlines. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 22:51, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bambi

The article says, "The Bambis are Germany's most prestigious media awards, covering film, television and music." The Wikipedia article, Bambi (prize), shows that the history goes back quite a bit. I think it should be included, though I'm not sure where. It seems to fit appropriately under the "German response" section, since it's more about their response to the project being made than it is applauding the merits of the project itself. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 18:24, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
I was unsure mainly over whether it deserved mention in this article or Cruise's own, but yes, a line in the "German response" section wouldn't go amiss. Thanks, Steve T • C 18:28, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Will you include it, or should I? I've got the time. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 18:31, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Done :P - Steve T • C 18:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Test audience" reaction

The following (cited) passage was added to the #Release section:

Other reports stated that the release has been pushed back again in order to re-shoot scenes, because test audiences were unimpressed with parts of the film.

This is something new, something we haven't heard before. It came from the lead paragraph of an article in German publication Der Spiegel (1). The article proper explains:

The release... has been delayed... because it failed to impress audiences in test viewings in its current form, according to media reports.

This is something slightly different. "According to media reports" it says. So it's not a secondary source in this instance, but a tertiary one. We should instead find the secondary sources to quote. The problem arises in actually finding them. According to searches at Google News , The Times (2) is the only serious outlet which has reported anything like this. Others parrot it, but it's significant that they either directly credit The Times as their source, or in some cases plagiarise the text wholesale. And while The Times is usually credible, we have a problem using its article as the source because it doesn't mention that reshoots are occurring because of poor test screenings. What it actually says is:

Valkyrie... has so far left test audiences unimpressed. The quality of Cruise's German accent was widely commented on. The film has also had to have reshoots after footage was damaged in labs.

And unfortunately for The Times, there haven't been any test screenings, because the film isn't even completed. What The Times really means by this can be determined from looking at the second sentence: "The quality of Cruise's German accent..." What The Times is actually doing is parroting and putting its own spin on pre-existing reports which relayed that the film "has already been panned by critics who have had a sneak peek". These in turn can be sourced to very well publicised comments from bloggers and gossip pages which appeared after the film's first trailer was released. Comments from people such as Roger Friedman at Fox News (3), who criticised various aspects of the trailer, and Cruise's lack of a German accent (you'll note this 'fact' has become inverted in the telling by the time The Times gets to it).

To summarise: even cursory check of the Google News results will reveal the timeline:

  1. Trailer criticised by commentators for various reasons (Cruise's accent, a line about "warm bread").
  2. This is lazily reported upon by journos, using language such as "critics who have seen the film early have panned it."
  3. This in turn evolves into "test audiences were unimpressed" in The Times article, despite the fact that the film isn't completed. The article also mentions straight after that reshoots took place due to chemical damage on the film stock.
  4. Der Spiegel conflates the two issues, relaying that test audience reactions have led to reshoots.

Even taking that at face value, Der Spiegel's story is still cited to "media reports", of which I cannot find one. Until this is either confirmed (or denied), the line should be removed from the article. All the best, Steve T • C 21:48, 13 May 2008 (UTC)