Talk:Ursa Minor

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[edit] Septentrion

What is being disputed is the etymological derivation of the Latin word "septentrion."

The question depends on what would be considered the celestial marker of North during the Roman period.

By, say, 44 BC, there hadn't been a pole star for a millenium, nor would there be another worthy of the name for yet another millenium to come. Due to Precession, Thuban (α Dra) had ceased to be the pole star circa 1900 BC and Polaris was still 10 degrees from the pole. Clearly, this situation is being reflected in the notion that it is seven stars that mark North.

While the naked-eye stars of Ursa Minor are both circumpolar and seven in number, it should be pointed out that there is another group of seven stars, bigger, brighter, and equally distant from the pole in Roman times. It is my contention that it was the stars of the Big Dipper or Plough that were being referred to.

Examples from the centuries when the was no significant "North Star" -

  • When, in the Odyssey, Homer has his sailors steer by "the Bear that never bathes in Ocean's stream," it is Ursa Major of which he speaks, not Ursa Minor.
  • Again, the Biblical references to "the Bear" (Job) and "the seven stars" (Amos) also point to the larger figure.

The American Heritage Dictionary isn't sure which Dipper is being referred to. (I don't have the OED available to me.)

I believe that this paragraph should be transferred to "Ursa Major."

B00P 11:20, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


The OED gives the etymology as
[ad. L. septentrio, sing. of septentriōnēs, orig. septem triōnēs, the seven stars of the constellation of the Great Bear, f. septem seven + triōnes, pl. of trio plough-ox. Cf. F. septentrion.]
The first definition in the OED is
1. pl. (chiefly as Latin.) The constellation of the Great Bear, occas. the Little Bear.
—Bkell 20:55, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


Aha! Thank you very much. I shall transfer the paragraph to "Big Dipper/Plough" in five days if there are no objections. B00P 06:07, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Done as threatened promised. B00P 10:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] History

There was a short section entitled "History" just before the "Mythology" section. It contained three short items.

  1. The first declared that the pyramids were aligned with Ursa Minor. This had a "citation needed" note appended, as well it might, as they were actually aligned to Thuban (Alpha Draconis), the previous Pole Star.
  2. Item two was about the Dragon's Wing asterism.
  3. The final item was a short version of the Dog's Tail entry in the Mythology section.

Dropping the first and third points left the section woefully thin, so it seemed best to combine the History and Mythology sections, moving the Dragon's Wing to the appropriate location.

I also tightened some of the section's verbiage slightly.

B00P (talk) 07:01, 5 May 2008 (UTC)