Talk:Urmonotheismus
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[edit] Discussion is unfair, unargued, and unsourced
Original monotheism is obviously a topic on which it is easy to have a biased opinion, for either side, because members of theistic religious faiths such as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam would have strong pre-theoretic reasons to embrace this view, while persons who do not believe in God, or in the God of monotheism, or in divine revelation, would have strong pre-theoretic reasons to reject this view.
I lean towards accepting the hypothesis of original monotheism myself. That said, here are some specific reasons why I think this article in its present for is unfairly biased against the view, and lacks argument or research to suport such a bias.
(1) Our knowledge of Assyrian and Semitic faiths are not the primary evidence for original monotheism. Schmidt introduced a set of independent anthropolgical criteria for determining the relative age of traditional cultures, and argued on this basis that the least developed cultures appeared to be closest to monotheistic beliefs. There are original creator/sky-god deities preserved in the cultural memory of almost every major religious tradition and traditional/tribal religion. Lang also saw evidence for original monotheism in the beliefs of various Australian aboriginal groups which were separated from one another and had not been in contact with Western Christian missionaries.
(2) Nothing about the hypothesis of original monotheism compels its proponents to endorse colonialism or the Westernization of cultures. Of course Christians believe that their religion is true, and this gives them enough motivation to spread their beliefs to other cultures, although many Christians would not endorse Westernization. The hypothesis of original monotheism, if true, does not imply that Christianity is true (although it is compatible with Christian beliefs), and it does not imply that Western monotheists have any ethical right or obligation to convert members of traditional religious cultures to a Western monotheistic faith.
(3) No support is given in this article, either in the form of argument or in the form of a citation for the claim that the hypothesis of original monotheism was effectively refuted by the 1950s. I am not aware myself of any such refutation, and I would like to be able to access the refutation(s) which is/are being referred to here. Please give more information, possibly a direct quote, or at least cite a source with page numbers for me to look up.
(4) Neither is any reference given for the claim that Christian apologists have changed their view on this subject. Surely some apologists believe one thing and others believe another. Names and references are needed here.
(5) No sources or quotations are given to support the claim that the hypothesis of original monotheism was abandoned by its original proponents. Which original proponents abandoned it. Schmidt? In what publication? What were his reasons?
(6) Of course Jews, Christians, and Muslims will believe that humanity was created to be in relationship to God and that humanity's knowledge of God has deteriorated in other religious traditions. This is what their scriptures teach. Pointing out the compatibility of original monotheism as an anthropological hypothesis with certain faith traditions or philosophical views does nothing to argue against it on anthropological grounds. So, in this sense, it is pointless to say that original monotheism is defended in "pious circles".
(7) There are of course scholars with monotheistic faith-commitments, such as evangelical Christian Norman Geisler, who argue for original monotheism. The fact that Geisler and others are Christians does not mean that their work is non-academic, or "outside of academic circles". Geisler has a Ph.D. in philosophy from Loyala University Chicago. He has taught at accredited schools and is a member (among other academic organizations) of the American Philosophical Society and American Academy of Religion, neither of which is a "pious", "non-academic" group of scholars. Again, anthropolgical evidence is used by proponents of original monotheism as an anthropolgical hypothesis. It is not just a matter of pointing to a scriptural text or a religious doctrine and saying: according to this, religion begins with God. SCPhilosopher (talk) 15:25, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
- the article is a fair summary of Pettazzoni (1958) cited, which is itself a summary of the debate up to that date. I could not find any evidence of active debate of the topic after the 1950s outside of fundamentalist publications. That "monotheism was effectively refuted by the 1950s" is the entire point of this essay. You may argue that Pettazzoni is misrepresenting the case, but then the burden would lie on you to produce literature supporting this claim. It is by no means the case that all Christian apologists automatically embrace Urmonotheismus, as you seem to be implying. Mainstream Christianity operates with a notion of revelation, i.e. to Abraham and later patriarchs and prophets.
- It is patently irrelevant whether Geisler has an academic degree. The question is whether his publications on the question appear in notable academic journals. If you have any more recent anthropological literature you can cite, by all means do that. The "Christian Apologetics Journal", self-declared "forum for the presentation of articles contributing to the defense of the historic Christian Faith" is certainly quotable as evidence that the topic is kept alive in religious circles, but it hardly qualifies as a source of current research in anthropology. Needless to say, any debate on the question must be informed by ethnological evidence, not by scriptural exegesis. Incidentially, if there was bona fide evidence for Urmonotheismus, there would be no reason even from an atheist position to deny that: after all, there is ample evidence for theism in prehistoric times, and no atheist would consider that a reason to change their outlook. The fact of the matter is that this question was brought forward in the 1910s, debated for 30 years, found to be completely without merit, and dropped. Again, if I am missing something, do cite the relevant anthropological literature. thanks, dab (𒁳) 20:35, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
One problem with the Pettazzoni book is that (I am assuming from the title) it is not in English. This doens't make it by any means an inferior work of scholarship, but it does not help me, or other insufficiently educated English-speaking users of Wikipedia to verify any of the information in the article. You do say that original monotheism was effectively refuted by the 1950s in the article, and I accept that Pettazzoni states this. I further accept that he makes an argument for this, giving reasons that refute the hypothesis. But the article is severely lacking in that it does not give any information regarding what these reasons or arguments might be. Providing them would be a great improvement to the article, and would allow users to make use of this article beyond as an appeal to authority. SCPhilosopher 15:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- well, the concept was mostly discussed in German (and Austrian) academia. I am not aware the topic has caused much of a stir in, say, Anglican theology. That said, by all means, the article should certainly be expanded. The present stage is just the best I could come up with after a brief literature search. I cordially invite you to research the topic in more detail and collect the relevant literature. The point is just that we need to find the literature first and expand the article later, informed by what we find. dab (𒁳) 22:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
