Talk:Union for a Popular Movement
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[edit] Liberalism
Many members of UMP like Madelin are liberals, so can we add liberalism as one of the ideologies of the party? Checco 08:33, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
- Possibly, but keep in mind that what is meant there is economic liberalism (Madelin is also socially liberal, as far as I know, but his followers are not). David.Monniaux 21:20, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with you, but UMP is in general socially liberal if compared to many other EPP parties: as far as I know it doesn't oppose abortion, stem-cell reasearch, single-sex unions... Instead I don't agree with the changes you made in the factions' section. Radicals and CNIP are associate parties, but their members are also members of UMP (to be precise some 30% of the Radicals are members of UDF, such as Cornillet, and of other minor parties). Finally I was aking myself if Dupont-Aignan and his movement are still members of UMP: if they're not we need to eliminate them from the factions' section. --Checco 21:29, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Associate parties
What parties are officially associate parties to UMP? I'm sure only of Radicals, CNIP, FRS and Blue Ecologie. What about Debout la Republique and RPF? --Checco 21:59, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Nicolas Dupont-Aignan, Debout la République 's leader, wanted to be candidate in the presidential electiopn aigainst Nicolas Sarkozy. He could not because he did not obtain the 500 sponsorships of mayors. He left UMP but, at the June 2007 legislative election, UMP did not present another candidate in his constituency. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.66.234.112 (talk) 07:43, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Factions link to French Wikipedia?
Why do some of the factions on the English Wikiepdia link to the French Wikipedia? If I spoke French why wouldn't I be reading this article in French? The French article is much more in-depth and probably provides a more knowledgeable source for information on the subject.
I say redlink those links that we do not have an English page for, it may encourage someone to make an English Wikipedia article on it.
- You're right, but I thought it was better to have a link than having no links. Anyway I will put redlinks in place of links to French Wikipedia. I hope that someone will write the articles missing, as also you are hoping. --Checco 21:16, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
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- I started the five missing articles about UMP faction. There's a lot of work to do about them, anyway. I hope that someone will help them. --Checco 21:39, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] location's relative political concepts
Hello,
I find a bit confusing the use of center-right with UMP... Is this relative to what a center-right party is in US and UK? I mean, during the first round of the presidential election, the key of the success of N. Sarkozy was to grab people from extreme-right, whereas center people voted massively for the UDF candidate, F. Bayrou...
Another thing that trouble me is the use of conservatism for the UMP. I have to admit that I'm not very skilled in political knowledges, but are not conservators supposed to keep what is traditional in a nation? Or does this mean that they want to keep more ancient value, as religion and strong hierarchy?
In the first case, I think that the situation is quite different in France than in US. In US, liberal parties are traditionals and more-to-left ones are reformers. But it's the exact opposed situation in France : there is a huge social traditional background, and the reformers are liberals. And that's really what N. Sarkozy claims to do...
OlivierEM 13:09, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
- Very interesting... but keep in mind that in Europe conservatism is sometimes a synonim of liberalism when talking of the economy and other important issues. UMP is definitely conservative, but this doesn't mean that it doesn't support reforms: think only about Thatcher and Reagan... We can say that both conservatives and progressives (social-democrats, socialists, greens, social liberals...) want reforms, but conservative reforms differ from progressive reforms. Right or centre-right? You need to think a bit about the fact that what is right in France is probably centre-right or centre in the rest of Europe, and that what is centre (as MoDem) is centre-left. The whole French political spectrum of France is to the left of that of Germany, UK, Italy, etc. De Villier, for instance, is considered very right in France, but in Italy he would be considered as a normal Christian Democrat. Anyway, UMP is centre-right and also many members of it acknowledge the idea: think about the Christian Democrats or the Radicals... --Checco 17:50, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
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- Hmm, ok, thanks for the explaination, I understand really better, now.
OlivierEM 08:33, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
- Hmm, ok, thanks for the explaination, I understand really better, now.
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- Thanks to you... it's always interesting to discuss about such issues. See you. --Checco 10:13, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
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- I have labeled UMP in the introduction from "center-right" to "right-wing".And I jump precisely in your comment: "You need to think a bit about the fact that what is right in France is probably centre-right or centre in the rest of Europe".Think twice. In the scandinavian political scale for instance, UMP is pure right-wing.And even compared to the british Tories, the sarkozian UMP is in some way more on the right.Under the presidential campaign Sarkozy has been extensively using some far-right topics like praise of colonialism ("les bienfaits de la colonisation") and ultra-nationalistic rhetoric which gave birth to a ministry/state department of "immigration and national identity", despite nobody knowing what is the civil and/or legal meaning of "national identity", relatively to the clear republican concept of french citizenship. In the aftermath of the Paris riots of november 2005, Sarkozy succeded in killing the short-live attempt of the then prime minister (Villepin) to focus on the underlaying economic roots of the riots (chronic important unemployement affecting more the visible ethnically different youth by the side-effect of discrimination), and instead switched his communication onto the nationalistic xenophobic stance. The so-called "lepenisation".Anyway in the article List of political parties in France, UMP is in the right-wing category. --AntonioB 02:56, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
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- From an European point of view UMP, a member party of EPP, is clearly a centre-right party. Don't confuse national politics with European and world politics. What you call "lepenisation" is not sufficient to label UMP as a right-wing party. Obviously UMP is right-wing, but it is more precise to define it as centre-right. The List of political parties in France can't be a source because it is a Wikipedia article. --Checco 07:29, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
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- Ok. Obviously you didn't read my previous reserve about UMP in a global european scope. EPP is labeled as "centre-right" by itself, which is not a valid POV. Such a label can even be an ideological device to show a "cool", progressive side, to smooth the core conservative and reactionary aspects connected with "right-wing" parties, in an often pejorative way.Here is the self-naming of the EPP as "centre-right", on their site: http://www.epp.eu/hoofdpagina.php?hoofdmenuID=1 Now, if you can't come with better sources to support your From an European point of view UMP, a member party of EPP, is clearly a centre-right party , we have a POV problem here. We have to define also which coordinate and scale system should be use as valid to define left/right: the one that frenchs apply to themselves, one that could embrace the whole Europe or EU or one at the world level. If we talk from a french point of view, the UMP is just plain right-wing and the correct label here could be something like "UMP is the (big/main) right-wing political party" which says it: right-wing in the french political landscape. In France the center-right was the Union for French Democracy of Bayrou. But my comment did take the whole EU as the coordinate system, and there the EPP is on the right-wing, left of the ultra-nationalistics Euronat (http://www.euronat.org/) and AEN (Alliance for Europe of the Nations: http://www.aensite.org/ ), but right of the center-right and centre-left being found in the EDP (European Democratic Party: http://www.pde-edp.net/ )and the ELDR (European Liberal Democrat and Reform Party: http://www.eldr.eu/ ). Inside the EPP itself one can further refine the left/right scale and discover that in fact some parties are genuinely right-wing and others lean to over the center-right, for instance by comparing the swedish Moderaterna, the spanish PP, the italian Forza Italia, the french UMP. The swedish "Ny" (New) Moderaterna (http://moderaterna.se) specially has undergone a light centrist or even center-left turn under Reinfeldt (see for instance: http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?articleId=12066). The british Conservatives, wanting to retain their strong euro-sceptic belief, aren't EPP but have their one faction, associated to EPP, hence the EPP-ED group (European Democrats: http://www.epp-ed.org/europeandemocrats/ ) which labels itself "the political center in Europe" (http://www.epp-ed.eu/group/en/politicalposition.asp ). If we have to take for granted what those parties say about themselves there's no "right", all claim to be "centre-right", excepted the far-right. There's clearly an issue here. Further, if we zoom at the world scale, it's not possible to average the left/right positions because cultures are too different to be compared, like for instance the US political landscape, with Republicans and Democrats seen both as right-wing from an european point of view, but Democrats being seen as "leftists" by the Republicans, which is way funny and weird for all the european social-democrats/socialists. Well, all in all, you bring no documented justification for stating that it's more accurate to label UMP as center-right than right/right-wing. Moreover what is called the "lepenization", with its stance about foreigners, immigration, chauvinism and a hint of neo-colonialism puts the UMP plain in the right-wing side. As a starter about lepenization, from google: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=+lepenization&btnG=Search. LePen went ahead at the first round in the presidential election of 2002, and under the UMP rule and the strong hijacking of the party by Sarkozy, nothing has been done to correct the economic/social (see 2005 civil unrest in France) roots of the lepenization but instead Sarkozy has been playing in a very populist way with the symbolism and the fear of aliens, to appeal to the Front National electorate. And, well, the traditional "Bismarckian" welfare model isn't in itself a criterion to classify the UMP more on the center-right, in case of you bring that argument. As this comment gets long and I need to come later with more links to sources, I just put the NPOV banner on the article by now. --AntonioB 17:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
- I read your remarks, simply I don't agree with you. --Checco 17:42, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
- Well, it must be possible to find the right designation or a noncontroversial definition of the UMP, accross the variety of personal (political) opinions, despite the task being difficult. Here, on Wikipedia in english, with lot of potential US readers, accuracy is even more important. --AntonioB 18:30, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
- You're right, but the problem is that we have different opinions about what is more accurate. --Checco 18:40, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
- Well, it must be possible to find the right designation or a noncontroversial definition of the UMP, accross the variety of personal (political) opinions, despite the task being difficult. Here, on Wikipedia in english, with lot of potential US readers, accuracy is even more important. --AntonioB 18:30, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
- I read your remarks, simply I don't agree with you. --Checco 17:42, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
- Ok. Obviously you didn't read my previous reserve about UMP in a global european scope. EPP is labeled as "centre-right" by itself, which is not a valid POV. Such a label can even be an ideological device to show a "cool", progressive side, to smooth the core conservative and reactionary aspects connected with "right-wing" parties, in an often pejorative way.Here is the self-naming of the EPP as "centre-right", on their site: http://www.epp.eu/hoofdpagina.php?hoofdmenuID=1 Now, if you can't come with better sources to support your From an European point of view UMP, a member party of EPP, is clearly a centre-right party , we have a POV problem here. We have to define also which coordinate and scale system should be use as valid to define left/right: the one that frenchs apply to themselves, one that could embrace the whole Europe or EU or one at the world level. If we talk from a french point of view, the UMP is just plain right-wing and the correct label here could be something like "UMP is the (big/main) right-wing political party" which says it: right-wing in the french political landscape. In France the center-right was the Union for French Democracy of Bayrou. But my comment did take the whole EU as the coordinate system, and there the EPP is on the right-wing, left of the ultra-nationalistics Euronat (http://www.euronat.org/) and AEN (Alliance for Europe of the Nations: http://www.aensite.org/ ), but right of the center-right and centre-left being found in the EDP (European Democratic Party: http://www.pde-edp.net/ )and the ELDR (European Liberal Democrat and Reform Party: http://www.eldr.eu/ ). Inside the EPP itself one can further refine the left/right scale and discover that in fact some parties are genuinely right-wing and others lean to over the center-right, for instance by comparing the swedish Moderaterna, the spanish PP, the italian Forza Italia, the french UMP. The swedish "Ny" (New) Moderaterna (http://moderaterna.se) specially has undergone a light centrist or even center-left turn under Reinfeldt (see for instance: http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?articleId=12066). The british Conservatives, wanting to retain their strong euro-sceptic belief, aren't EPP but have their one faction, associated to EPP, hence the EPP-ED group (European Democrats: http://www.epp-ed.org/europeandemocrats/ ) which labels itself "the political center in Europe" (http://www.epp-ed.eu/group/en/politicalposition.asp ). If we have to take for granted what those parties say about themselves there's no "right", all claim to be "centre-right", excepted the far-right. There's clearly an issue here. Further, if we zoom at the world scale, it's not possible to average the left/right positions because cultures are too different to be compared, like for instance the US political landscape, with Republicans and Democrats seen both as right-wing from an european point of view, but Democrats being seen as "leftists" by the Republicans, which is way funny and weird for all the european social-democrats/socialists. Well, all in all, you bring no documented justification for stating that it's more accurate to label UMP as center-right than right/right-wing. Moreover what is called the "lepenization", with its stance about foreigners, immigration, chauvinism and a hint of neo-colonialism puts the UMP plain in the right-wing side. As a starter about lepenization, from google: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=+lepenization&btnG=Search. LePen went ahead at the first round in the presidential election of 2002, and under the UMP rule and the strong hijacking of the party by Sarkozy, nothing has been done to correct the economic/social (see 2005 civil unrest in France) roots of the lepenization but instead Sarkozy has been playing in a very populist way with the symbolism and the fear of aliens, to appeal to the Front National electorate. And, well, the traditional "Bismarckian" welfare model isn't in itself a criterion to classify the UMP more on the center-right, in case of you bring that argument. As this comment gets long and I need to come later with more links to sources, I just put the NPOV banner on the article by now. --AntonioB 17:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
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Maybe, I've got the solution... my proposal is to replace centre-right with conservative or liberal-conservative: what fo you think about it? --Checco 07:46, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- In France (contrary to manies European countries), the words "centre-left" and "centre-right" are not often expressed. In Italy, the Union is perceived as "the centre-left coalition" and the House of freedom as "the centre-right coalition". Indeed, in Italy (and manies European countries), "centre-left" and "centre-right" parties refer to the parties of government. In France, the parties of government are called "left-wing" and "right-wing" parties. And the others are called "far left" and "far right" parties. So, in the French political language, UMP is considered as a "right-wing" party. But, in the European political language, UMP is considered as a "centre-right" party. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.66.234.112 (talk) 08:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
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- I agree completely with you, and here we are working on an encyclopedia not for the French but for the people of all the world. I hope that also AntonioB will understand this point. --Checco 14:05, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Eric Besson
On the blog of Eric Besson (http://www.ericbesson.fr/) we can read : « ... Mais je ne rejoins pas pour autant le parti dont il (Nicolas Sarkozy) est issu, l'UMP. » translation -> « … But I don't join the party from which he (Nicolas Sarkozy) arises, the UMP» He is « Secrétaire d'État » of the prime minister (François Fillon) but he isn’t a member of the UMP.
(Sorry for my "spelling mistakes" but I am French ... )
[edit] Centre-right?
The UMP cannot be described as centre right. Perhaps the Modem or the UDF could be. It is the main Conservative party in France. if it is centre-right, who are we going to decribe as right ? I think Nicolas Sarkozy would be very disappointed to think his government party was centre right, since his whole campaign was centred around the idea of being right wing and proud of it Johncmullen1960 (talk) 14:40, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- From an European perspective, UMP is centre-right and, to some extent, to the left of many centrist parties in Europe. We did already that discussion: the problem is that here we need to use general definitions, not national ones. --Checco (talk) 14:57, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed. —Nightstallion 15:07, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
The problem is, if you define the UMP as "centre-right" why did Bayrou and many others fee a need to form a couple of new parties (Modem and nouveau centre), because they wanted to be "centre-right". I don't know what you mean by European perspective. Perhaps more useful would be a statement of aims...Johncmullen1960 (talk) 13:25, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
