Talk:Unconditional surrender

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Was Iraq a third instance of this doctrine in US history?

Nah, don't think so, really, as the US, probably to allow some face-saving, never required anyone connected with the Saddam government to "officially" declare or sign a surrender. On the other hand, since the government and army were completely smashed, it could be considered to be in that spirit, although not following the doctrine to the letter. Ellsworth 22:34, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

See Debellatio --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 21:59, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

This article says that the first instance of the word "unconditional surrender" was during the US Civil War. But on Battle of Saratoga it says that Gates called for unconditional surrender from Burgoyne. Which is correct? →bjornthegreat ^t|_c 16:58, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Since I have no idea whether the Revolutionary War battle article is correct, I will take the safe course by weaseling this article. One legalistic difference between the battles is that Grant offered unconditional surrender and it was accepted, which was not the case at Saratoga (according to that article). It is also unclear whether the literal phrase "unconditional surrender" was used in the earlier battle or whether its author was merely taking advantage of a modern term.

While I am at it, I have taken the liberty of removing the year-old warning box about merging with another article since no one seems to be interested enough to do it. Hal Jespersen 19:02, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay. I've changed it to "most famous use", as that seems a bit more descriptive. →bjornthegreat ^t|_c 23:15, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

"famous" and "notable" without a proper context (e.g., "in the U.S.") are biased. Many people know the formula was used in WWII, yes. But the American Civil War History is not thaugth outside the U.S. and maybe anglophone countries. --euyyn 23:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Since the section in question is titled "United States usage" I doubt there can be any confusion. By the way, this is a war that is interesting to a lot of non-English speakers. The article American Civil War is translated into 50 languages on Wikipedia. Hal Jespersen 23:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, although it confused me anyways. Being interesting to many non-English speaking people didn't change my point, however. Manga interests many people outside Japan, but that doesn't put manga-related things in the common knowledge. I do know there's a Pokemon called Pikachu which is a yellow electric rat; most people only know there exists something Japanese called Pokemon. If you want to know for sure, travel and ask. --euyyn 12:09, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

It would seem that unconditional surrender would be demanded under three circumstances: (1) that the defeated side (typical rebels) have no legitimacy, (2) that the victors intend to annex the defeated power in whole or in part or establish a puppet state, (3)that the defeated power is so unreliable in meeting treaty obligations that the victor must establish a government of its selection.

The first seems to describe the Confederacy well. Nobody had any cause to believe that a rump Confederate States of America was going to continue after the American Civil War. It also applies to the secession of Biafra from Nigeria; the victors are likely to treat the defeated with considerable leniency on the principle that the voluntary re-assimilation of the rebelling entity is far easier if terms are gentle.

The second better fits the situation in the Republic of Vietnam in the spring of 1975. The objective of the North Vietnamese Army and the Vietcong was to overthrow the non-communist state and spread the authority of a communist régime throughout Vietnam. As one figure of the surrendering government said, roughly, "We have nothing left to surrender", a fair assessment of the military situation.

The third clearly describes the situation of nazi Germany in its death throes. The nazis had shown themselves unreliable in meeting any obligations by treaty or agreement; they had committed crimes that offended the sensibilities of all of Allied Powers. The nazis could not be trusted even in the most abject forms of vassaldom. But it can be imposed on the principle of annihilation of the defeated cause, as in Cambodia in 1975 after the Khmer Rouge took over.

Leniency is possible in the first and second cases -- but highly unlikely in the third because of the unwillingness to preserve the former political structure and perhaps even culture or economic system of the defeated entity.

--Paul from Michigan 03:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why so much about the states?

There seems to be a lot of biased info here. It seems to all be centered around the United States? Where there no cases of other countries asking for unconditional surrenders? Also, why does anyone reading this article care about statues? or the history of other Civial War battles? I think some content should be reconsidered for relevance. --DFRussia 06:25, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Normally a belligerent will only agree to surrender unconditionally if completely incapable of continuing hostilities."

The above line from the article seems simply false to me. Perhaps a more accurate way of expressing this idea would be to say, "Normally a belligerent will only agree to surrender unconditionally if completely convinced of the impossibility of either victory or improved surrender conditions." Certainly, at the time of Germany's surrender in 1945, it was not only capable of continuing hostilities, but was actively doing so right up until the surrender. The same can be said for Japan (though their surrender was conditional). It was a lack of hope, not a lack of capability, that led to the unconditional surrender. 62.219.163.100 (talk) 14:11, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Whilst this article requires significant improvement, adding original research only adds to the problem. Please provide a source Rotovia (talk) 11:50, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that the talk page requires citations. I was just pointing out an (unsourced) factual error in the main article. If someone will fix it (with sources, if you insist, though it seems to me to be a point of logical fact), then the article will have been improved.62.219.163.100 (talk) 12:00, 2 June 2008 (UTC)