Talk:Turkmenistan/Archive 1

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[edit] Re-direct problem

I don't think Turkmen SSR should be redirected here. That would be like redirecting Persia to Iran or Siam to Thailand. They were different entities with their own histories. -- Zoe

In fact Siam does redirect to Thailand. I'd suggest older names for places only deserve an article if there is a decent amount to say about them. For now I think everything is fine in Turkmenistan or History of Turkmenistan, everything being about three lines. Bagpuss

For purpose of NPOV, the use of terms such as 'squandered' should probably be avoided. Further, the line below it has an unclear link with the relevant line, despite it being suggested that it expands on the theme. Improv 06:49, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Question, did something happen to "Politics" ? I don't remember it being that POV sounding... 68.39.174.39 05:22, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Can anyone actually backup the assertion that the colour photograph labelled "A Turkmen man in traditional clothes, around 1905–1915" is from that era? Kodachrome wasn't invented until 1935 and Agfacolour wasn't invented until 1936. I'm going to rename it until somebody can come up with proof. Perhaps the implication is that the traditional clothes were common in the 1905-15 era?

Gabe 18:55, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I imagine it's from the Prokudin-Gorskii collection--see http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/empire/gorskii.html and many of the other Wikipedia articles on Central asia. 145.64.134.241 12:27, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, that photo was from Prokudin-Gorsky. It's available on this page: http://sechtl-vosecek.ucw.cz/en/prokudin-gorsky/ostatni.html and I'd make reference to that, but I don't know anything about anything on wikipedia. --209.21.65.28 22:27, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

Here's as much as I could before feeling embarrassed for whoever wrote this. Bold is parts I would edit first.

President Saparmurat Niyazov, a former bureaucrat of the Communist Party of the USSR, retains absolute control over the country and opposition is not tolerated. An all-pervasive cult of personality is in place, with President Niyazov as Turkmenbashi ("The Leader of all Turkmens"). His face adorns almost everything in Turkmenistan, from banknotes to bottles of vodka. The logo of turkmen national television is his profile. The two books he had written are mandatory readings in schools, car driving courses (sic!), clubs, etc. Institutions that cannot be named after him are named after his mother. All watches and clocks made must bear his portrait printed on the dial-face. His 15 meter (50 feet) tall gold-plated giant statue stands on a rotating pedestral, so it will always face into the sun and shine light onto the capital city, which he himself designed. In reality, Niyazov is a very short person, barely taller than 150 centimeters (5 feet).

A slogan popular among Turkmens is "Halk! Watan! Türkmenbashy!" meaning "People! Motherland! Leader!". Niyazov wrote the new turkmen national anthem-oath himself, including phrases that say people who defamate the motherland or the Turkmenbashi should lose their arms.

International corporations have become party to this madness, because no entity can get licences to participate in the turkmen natural gas industry without first complying with Niyazov's strange wishes. His "Ruhnama" book has been published by foreign industrialists in all major languages and croatian, polish, hungarian and bantu (gambian) and many more languages exactly for this reason. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Redguy (talk • contribs) 03:52, 24 April 2005.

Niyazov is a kind of man who closed all the hospitals outside capital? Why? He thinks there is no necesity in them, people can travel to capital when they're sick.

Calling that kind of man "mad" isn't exactly a POV, it's a medical constatation.

Ilyak 15:38, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

"An all-pervasive cult of personality is in place" is exactly descriptive of the situation. Cf. the Economist article "Russia and Turkmenistan fall out" from Jul 3rd 2003, http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/country.cfm?id=Turkmenistan where the Wall Street Journal says the same thing, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/country_profiles/1298497.stm where the BBC says the same thing. These sources have minimal possible motivations to bias their reporting about the country in a negative direction. 145.64.134.241 12:28, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Parts of teh section on the economy use the same text as does the CIA World factbook entry on Turkmenistan, at https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/tx.html ScottMacEachern 20:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

So we shouldn't write that Niyazov has "squandered" his country's wealth and resources on self-glorification because the word "squandered" isn't NEUTRAL???? We shouldn't call madness "madness" because it might be "taking sides"?? Geez, no one starts yelling that "oh no, this isn't a neutral, unbiased comment!" if someone calls Hitler or Stalin a evil madman. Niyazov is, and this is FACT and not editorializing, an evil, megalomaniacal tyrant with no regard whatsoever for the lives of his people. Let's call a spade a spade, shall we? 68.97.212.59 02:51, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Karakum Desert

In the article it states the Karakum desert covers 90% of Turkmenistan. If you click on the Karakum Desert link it says that the desert covers 70% of Turkmenistan. So which is it, 20% is a big difference. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.145.164.36 (talk • contribs) 18:39, 27 December 2005.

[edit] Condemnation of homosexuality

The article says that international groups have criticized the national anthem for condemning homosexuality, but I couldn't find anything about homosexuality in the lyrics. Am I missing something? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Masterofzen (talk • contribs) 22:12, 27 December 2005.

[edit] Wow

I don't think I really have to say this but that guy I crazy, only person close to as bad as him would be shah of Iran —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.30.173.162 (talk • contribs) 19:28, 10 February 2006.

[edit] Coastline?

How can Turkmenistan be "adjacent to the Caspian Sea" yet have no coastline? :: Salvo (talk) 20:40, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

It seems strange to me, too. I'm shortening it to bare facts. The explanation given in the current article (copied below) seems to be POV; note the argumentation in the last sentence. I would consider a huge sea bordering many nations to count as "coastline". Perhaps there is some confusion between being "landlocked" and not having a coastline; these are different concepts. I suggest: if someone can find good evidence that the term "coastline" should not apply to the Caspian coast of Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, etc., then restore this paragraph (improved), if it's important.

Although bordering the Caspian Sea (1,768 km), Turkmenistan is not considered to have a coastline because the sea is entirely landlocked. This is comparable to the State of Utah which has the Great Salt Lake, but is not considered to have a coastline.

Zaslav 09:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anthem

I just removed:

[Niazov wrote the national anthem], including phrases that say people who defame the motherland or the Turkmenbashi should lose their arms. The national anthem/oath has received condemnation from several international human rights groups because it encourages the persecution of homosexuals.

because I didn't see anything like that in the text of the anthem (although there is something about going blind), and couldn't find discussion anywhere about the anthem relating to homosexuality. Staecker 03:25, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image removed

Someone added this image:

Image removed

I don't see how this really adds anything to the article. At least the caption is pretty silly: As far as I know, button-down shirts, ties and suit-jackets aren't considered "traditional" clothing anywhere. --BluePlatypus 08:03, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ruhnama "revered"?

it says that the Ruhnama is "revered in Turkmenistan almost like a holy text". That's a bit unclear and maybe slightly inaccurate. It implies that the Turkmen people honestly and sincerely believe in Ruhnama and really do revere it. Well I know some Turkmens and I can tell you that there are maybe three people in Turkmenistan who sincerely revere Ruhnama like a holy text, the rest are practically sick to their stomachs when they even see Niyazov's portrait because of all the horrible things he has done to that poor little country. Maybe change it to say something like the book is "expected to be revered...." or "the people are made to revere Ruhnama almost like a holy text." 68.97.212.59 02:57, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image Date

If u look closley at the picture with the cammel, u can see in the right side, on one of the sacks, the date :1911. Which means that it dates AT LEAST bewteen 1911-1915, and not 1905-1915, as listed in the description. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.65.134.74 (talk • contribs) 21:17, 2 May 2006.

Never mind the camel. I just changed that bit about Rukhnama...68.97.212.59 23:01, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] For God's sake enough already!

I've had it with this Niyazov!! USA, Europe, UN, where the hell are you? Amnesty International? Human Rights Watch? SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING!!!!!!! FREE TURKMENISTAN!!!!!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.97.212.59 (talk • contribs) 04:09, 14 May 2006.

Why should Europe do anything to free Turkmenistan, when German and French companies are doing great business with the Great Serdar Türkmenbaşy, buying from him cheap gas and building fountains and castles in his honour? Read Gundogar, it has some English articles too.

And please open an account and sign your messages... --Amir E. Aharoni 17:04, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I just did open an account. :) And I read Gundogar regularly. По-английски и по-русски! K. Lastochka 22:51, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

And as for Europe, the first step they should take is to stop doing business with that dictator. K. Lastochka 22:52, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

Some user called Papi Lugliano or something like that is constantly inserting bits about some mythical Turkish leader who apparently would have founded the Hittite Empire or something. Not only are these edits false and vandalous, they're even irrelevant to Turkmenistan. Can something be done about this? Druworos 14:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Haha! I found that article he posted, "the legacy of Izmir Alkansur 1" or something. Total nonsense. :) K. Lastochka

[edit] Turkmenistan another "Islamic problem"?

Since Niyazov essentially portrays himself as a living god to his people, why is it that this article seems to hold that the country's official religion is Islam and that Muslims are not persecuted by this psychopath? Haven't a lot of mosques been destroyed and many Muslims imprisoned and tortured because they refused to accept his spiritual leadership? Why is it that everything negative in modern-day political discourse is blamed on Muslims?68.52.113.116 00:27, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Niyazov is an old school red head socialist and a crazy dictator. We can't wait normal behaviours from such a person. Such people are very dangereous for Turks. With respect, Deliogul 09:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

From Islam in Turkmenistan:

"President Niyazov has ordered that basic Islamic principles be taught in public schools. More religious institutions, including religious schools and mosques, have appeared, many with the support of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Turkey. Religious classes are held in both the schools and the mosques, with instruction in Arabic language, the Qur'an and the hadith, and the history of Islam."

It also goes on to explain that Islam is not a state religion, but I'd say the above qualifies as "government support" at least. Also, AFAIK, in Ruhnama Niyazov insists that Islam is a traditional religion of Turkmen people. -- int19h

[edit] Natural gas, electricity and water are free of charge

I added this sentence. "Turkmenistan is a single country in the world where natural gas, electricity and water are available free of charge to citizens." This fact is something we are proud of, and it was not mentioned in article. ~atamyrat

[edit] name

The native name given here and the name on the Turkmen Wikipedia are not the same. -Rmpfu89 18:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Turkmen-Gazprom deal: impact on Ukraine

This BBC article is be noteworthy, still, it's a bit unclear. BBC does provide a decent overview of the Ukraine-Russia gas row. I'm noting this here for convenience; it may well better be noted elsewhere, possibly in its own entry. Any thoughts? El_C 09:57, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Human Rights

There's been a back and forth deletion/revert regarding paragraphs critical of the alleged current condiditons in Turkmenistan. My take is that deleting paragraphs is one thing, but when one leaves in but de-links amnesty international, it shows an agenda. Rupertg 16:52, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New civilisation discovered in turkmenistan.

Perhaps we should mention it? I read it in discover. Zazaban 22:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sentence in lead

This sentence;

Turkmenistan is also under the rule of one of the world's most autocratic and repressive dictatorships.

Should not be in the lead of this article which should be primarily concerned with geography, traditional culture and so on. Certainly not without a source, any attribution or any surrounding discussion of context. I removed it, it was restored on the basis that the senetence was "indisputable". I think it should be clear to all that the sentence is obviously disputable, thus it shouldn't be carried without qualifiers. These issues need to be explored in the politics and human rights sections, surrounded by attributed sources. To simply write "one of the world's most autocratic and repressive dictatorships" is against policy. Autocratic and repressive according to whom?--Zleitzen 14:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Illegal breathing

In the last sentence of the politics section [[1]]

"In Turkmenistan it is illegal to breathe between 11:00am to 1:00pm oh sofie" -- I doubt that breathing is illegal during this time of the day, can someone please clarify it I misunderstood? Until then, I'll edit it out.

Please put new entries at the bottom. If you use the "+" tab to create a new section, this will happen automatically.

[edit] Comparison to other countries

The regime in Turkmenistan is similar to other dictatorships in Iran, North Korea and pre-war Iraq.

In what way? Until further substantiation I editing out this POV Dimensional dan 11:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Niyazov's death

I kinda feel bad for the guy. Especially considering that he died of death. :-) AEJ 14:24, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to move the "at the time of his death" economic stats: while true in and of themselves, their placement in this section of the article is POV. I'll put them under "Economy". -Fsotrain⁰⁹ 22:38, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Language

If the official language of Turkmenistan is Turkmen, then how come the language of the "official website" (http://www.turkmenistan.gov.tm/) is in Russian (with an optional English version)? Though Russian is the lingua franca of the CIS and other former Soviet satellites, is the underlying reason that the government doesn't expect anyone inside the country to have internet access and visit this website?

68.231.165.211 03:47, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Rulers of some countries from the former Soviet Union often show great contempt for their own culture. Alyaksandar Lukashenka, the dictator of Belarus, for example, said once that Belarusian language has no interst and that the only two important languages are Russian and English. He doesn't speak Belarusian himself and the official website of the presidency is in Russian and English only. In Turkmenistan, there is no need for a Turkmen website since people have no acces to the internet. See Talk:Gurbanguly Berdimuhammedow#Spelling too about a topic near to this one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Švitrigaila (talk • contribs) 15:06, 23 December 2006 (UTC).

True. Viktor Yanukovich, "Prime Minister" of Ukraine, has an imperfect command of Ukrainian. However, many Russians argue with me all the time on this point: eastern Ukraine is Russian, Khrushchev should never have given the Crimea to the Ukrainian SSR, it is a matter of "national shame" that the current Russian government removed the Black Sea Fleet from Sevastopol (this despite the fact that navy is still headquartered there, though the base is shared with the Ukrainian counterpart), etc. 68.231.165.211 21:42, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] February 11 Election

Should an article be made, or some mention at least, be given about the fact that they are having an election on February 11, 2007, to replace Niyazov. It will obviously have a great effect on Central Asia, what with the natural gas reserves the country has. And its the frist time the country will have any type of election. Kaiser matias 20:27, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Turkmen presidential election, 2007 already exists. :o) Švitrigaila 22:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] cite?

There's a lot of unsubstantiated stuff in the 'human rights' section - do any of the editors have a preference - should I remove it, add a cite tag or what? Note - I can't find good references for a lot of it myself (obviously - or I would just do that).213.249.237.49 16:02, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the worst to below.213.249.237.49 16:20, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] removals

they were condemned by independent observers such as [[Radio Free Europe]]<ref>{{cite news|first=Bruce|last=Pannier|title=Turkmenistan: Presidential Election Deemed Neither Free Nor Fair|url=http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2007/02/6fe7467b-71b5-49ce-8781-2ae20875ec77.html|work=[[Radio Free Europe]]|date=[[2006-02-12]]|accessdate=2007-02-14 }}</ref> and the [[International Crisis Group]]<ref>{{cite news|first=Alexander|last=Vershinin|title=Think Tank Blasts Turkmen Election|url=http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/13/ap/world/mainD8N8NHBG0.shtml|work=[[Associated Press]] |publisher=[[CBS News]]|date=[[2007-02-13]]|accessdate=2007-02-14}}</ref>.

This isn't balanced - the observers aren't impartial, and I don't think independant either. If a state or the UN comments I would understand.213.249.237.49 16:07, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

"..."Turkmenbashi," leader of Turkmen. He became notorious in the Western world for his cult of personality and for the harsh measures he took to crush political dissent."

I removed underlined bit - without citation at the moment.213.249.237.49 16:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Removal from human rights section - uncited - not a human rights violation as such.

In early 2005, the President called for all hospitals outside Ashgabat to be closed. Given the restrictions on movement inside the country and the country’s tightly controlled press, outside experts have had difficulty in determining the extent to which the hospital-closing plan has been carried out.

Removal - what exactly does "defected" mean, citations missing.

People who have defected from Turkmenistan are subject to prison terms for betraying the country. Liberal political movements which call for democracy or freedom of speech are illegal, and membership in one of them could lead to imprisonment.

213.249.237.49 16:16, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Removal from human rights section

"The Turkmen educational system is far behind the educational system in Russia. Entering a university often requires a bribe, discouraging talented people from seeking higher education."

reason - uncited - state of education system is irrelevant in this section.213.249.237.49 16:18, 15 February 2007 (UTC)