Talk:Turandot

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Contents

[edit] Time & Place

I hope it doesn't need explaining that this chinoiserie fable takes place in an imaginary Peking, not in modern-day Beiping, with its bicycle traffic-jams and coal-fire smogs. Wetman 08:50, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)


That's nice dear... Hew 15:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The score says 'A Pekino, al tempo delle favole' - 'In Pekin, in the age of fairy-tales' Linuxlad (talk) 17:05, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Possibility of Illustration

Hi! I added a link to a jpg picture I used on french and italian Wikipedia to illustrate this article. Maybe some of you will want to upload it to your own Wikipedia and add it to this page. C’est Logique 31/10/2004.

[edit] Fate of Alfano's completion

Is it worth mentioning that Toscanini savagely cut Alfano's original version of the completion? The details are given here in a Musical Times article:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3870/is_200201/ai_n9069512

R J Stove, 11:25 PM, Oct 31, 2005

Original of Turandot is not　witten by Carlo Gozzi but written by François Pétis de la Croix(1653～1713),isn`t it? Histoire du prince Calaf et de la princesse de la Chine in Les Mille et un Jour was issued Pétis in 1710. --218.226.104.221 20:48, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

This is the first time i read of it! Anyway, Puccini based he's Turandot on Gozzi, and not on Petis.--FaZ72 01:16, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Puccini's source was Andrea Maffei's translation of Friedrich Schiller's translation (1802) of Carlo Gozzi's comedy. --Al pereira 02:00, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

According to Ashbrook & Powers, p60, whilst it's true that this Maffei version was what Puccini first read (Simoni gave it him to read on the train!, in Milan in mid March 1920) it's likely that the librettists worked directly from Gozzi after that, since he mentions returning the book to Simoni, and usually referred to Gozzi as their source from then on. And the back cover/tailpiece to the Ricordi score says 'the libretto, by A & S, is adapted from an 18th century fairy-tale by Carlo Gozzi' Linuxlad (talk) 16:59, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

If this index is not Turandot but Turandot (Puccini), I admit leaving out Pétis`s Turandot. However,Turandot is not only known by Gozzi or Puccini,but by Pétis. According to " L'énigmatique Turandot de Puccini. " in 1995　written by Robert Aubaniac who is researcher of Turandot, Chinese princess was named Turandoct by Pétis for the first time.--61.23.86.19 14:12, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Exact words?

This article states that Toscanini said "Qui finì il Maestro", giving as a source an unidentified 1974 interview. A quick look at the Italian version of this article shows that they reckon he actually said the less terse "Qui termina la rappresentazione perché a questo punto il Maestro è morto".

Which is it, then? — Gulliver ✉ 11:53, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Then, this is the second source confirming this (see Talk:Giacomo_Puccini) against only one for 'qui fini il maestro'. I'll change the sentence!--FaZ72 18:28, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Happy 80th birthday, Turandot

Premiered 25 April, 1926. JackofOz 09:13, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, any chance to put this on the "On this day..." section of the main page? --Gennaro Prota 11:03, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Italics for aria titles?

Hi guys,

am I the only one to find italics in the "Noted arias" section quite ugly? I know they are "foreign" titles but that's inconsistent either with the rest of the article text and with the articles about single arias. BTW, I don't think we'll have an article about *each* aria. Especially if such articles will have nothing to say about music structure and lyrics (I see that even this article about Turandot says very little from a musical point of view. It just tells the plot, the character names and a few other things. It's the same trend one can see on singer articles: instead of telling things such as their vocal characteristics (extension etc.) they just report their biography) --Gennaro Prota 14:54, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gennaro Prota - Complete summary for my 16:46 UTC, 25 April 2006 edit

Sorry, this time I did too many changes in one edit. Here's the complete summary:

  • accessibility: improved image description (users with non-visual browsers could not infer the citation was from the score)
  • removed italics in Italian titles - cf. for instance La vie en rose, Volare etc.
  • bypassed again redirect for première; why on earth was it removed??
  • used semicolon for film title separation, as one of the titles contains a comma
  • bypassed redirect on Manowar album title
  • minor stylistic fixes
  • added a source text comment about the Delta Airlines spot (Who cares?)

PS: Lemuel and Al, please use edit summaries. Lemuel, you actually use them but note half of the changes, which accounts for why I missed your dash-addition in one of the conflicts :-/ Edit summaries take 1 minute to write, and save hours to us altogether.

[edit] New proposed guideline

Hi,

for everyone interested I wrote a rough sketch for a new guideline: Avoid Parkinson's Bicycle Shed Effect. Comments are welcome. --Gennaro Prota 17:44, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronounciation of "Turandot"

In discussion and performance I've always heard the "t" pronounced, but apparently that's not always done. Maybe someone more knowledge than I can talk about this in the article? Fireplace 15:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Both Corelli and Domingo pronounce it to rhyme with "ought". Barnaby the Scrivener (talk) 18:05, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

No doubt. It isn't French: the correct pronounciation is TurandoT, with the final "t" --Al Pereira(talk) 19:02, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

pronunciation

wiktionary: knowledgeable

wiktionary: knowledgable

Hopiakuta 15:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] photograph

< http://grovemusic.com/grove-owned/music/img/music.img010153.jpg >.

Hopiakuta 15:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The removal of the "Turandot in the media and events" section

I disagree with the removal of this section as it makes the article... well... less informative. I don't think the edit was in accordance with the policy which, I believe, is more to stop humerous worthless trivia creating an un-encylopedia like tone.

Sure some of the trivia can go (i.e. "Was used in a 1991 television commercial for Delta Air Lines. " - who cares?) but some of the trivia (such as that about Pavarotti's performance of it at the winter olympics and the fact that it was performed by one of the world's premiere heavy metal bands) is both interesting and shows how popular the work is.

The replacement sentance "Nessun dorma has become a popular culture standard and is recognizable to most Western ears. " also has a problem in that it can't be referenced, and comes off sounding like original research.

I think its probably better to demonstrate how famous the work is with interesting "trivia" (if you want to call it that and the Wikipedia guidelines reccomend you don't) rather than just say how famous it is. Perhap's i'll prepare a compromise and come back with it in a few days?

Then again since most of the trivia is about Nessun Dorma perhaps I could move the info onto that page... Hew 15:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New International Encyclopedia says so

Antonio Bazzini wrote "...an opera, Turandot, produced in 1867, ...." Perhaps it was a different Turandot than the one by Puccini. Please grant Bazzini his due credit. Something is fishy, (I believe). GhostofSuperslum 20:25, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Exact Words II

Enrico Minetti, concertmaster of the Scala orchestra at the time of the premiere, says that Toscanini's wording was "Qui finisce l'opera, rimasta incompiuta per la morte del Maestro." (Here end the opera, which remains incompklete because of the composer's death.) I don't have the work handy to cite it as a source, unfortunately--but, remember, he was sitting inches away from Toscanini at the moment that he spoke. Fred Lane 02:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Fred, is the book Ricordi Scaligeri? —Gennaro Prota•Talk 04:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Gennaro. It's been so long now that I'm not sure, but that title does ring a bell. Fred Lane 04:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm back again. A little thought has led me to the notion that Ricordi Scaligeri must be the book I'm recalling, because the title could mean, among other things, "Memories of La Scala." That would be a logical title for the memoirs of its concertmster. Fred Lane 04:51, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Yep, I know what the title means (I'm Italian) :-) I'll try to find out an exact reference. I think there are two sources of confusion: a) the film by Camillo Mastrocinque where Toscanini turns out to the audience and pronounces some words which probably don't reflect the original ones b) the fact that the opera was performed once on April 25, 1926 and then again two years later, in both cases without the Alfano ending. In the first case I think I've read that Toscanini simply remained silent. —Gennaro Prota•Talk 08:21, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Brecht

There is a play by Bertold Brecht with the same name (Turandot oder Der Kongreß der Weißwäscher), which also definetly deserves an article. A disambigution needed? ZMatskevich 06:24, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Definitely Yes, since this article is about Puccini, but (see beginning of this talk) someone like's it to be about Turandot in general!

[edit] Romance into Tragedy?

Has anyone considered how Puccini's score ends after the woman who has loved the prince all along dies. I understand how Puccini planned a happy ending, but it is so much more tragic with the version Toscaninni did. (Posted by 75.16.50.223, 10:41, 5 May 2007)

I don’t know, but…. I have a feeling that Puccini would not make it as a “happy ending” story. I have been thinking of this for many years, if only he could lived to finish this opera, I think the ending would be somewhat different.. just like Tosca! Well, this is just my opinion - Jay 16:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
There's been at least one recent production I read, where as Alfano's tub-thumping rerun of Nessun Dorma is pounded out, in the backdrop can be seen the aged Timur accompanying the dead body of Liu... Linuxlad (talk) 14:08, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
For a discussion of how a more complex and satisfactory final scene, (in which the role of Liu as the true hier of Lo-u-Ling's character), is implied in the tonal changes of the first 2 and a half scenes and the sketches, see [1] by Petty & Tuttle - (this is a fun read, but it might well just be psycho-babble! 80.177.213.144 (talk) 21:41, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:PF 916002~Puccini-Turandot-Posters.jpg

Image:PF 916002~Puccini-Turandot-Posters.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 14:46, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Principessa di morte

The WP text currently implies that the Alfano/Berio reconstructions start after this duet, but other texts give this duet as the start of their reconstructions. Anyone know the true position? The duet includes some nice touches, including the recall of the powerful music from the end of 'in questa reggia', and it would be good to know if Puccini had intended these. Bob aka Linuxlad (talk) 10:51, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

No doubt that the reconstruction starts from the duet. The duet was sketched by Puccini for the most part (included the end of "In questa reggia": "Mai nessun m'avrà..."). It's difficult to explain the details. The most refined episode, in the sketches, is "Mio fiore mattutino". --Al Pereira(talk) 11:28, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for this detailed info - is there a web-accessible(*) reference for the state of these drafts you can give? Linuxlad (talk) 08:33, 20 March 2008 (UTC) (*There appear to be several relevant academic articles on google, but they are all pay-to-view :-()

The first organic reasearch on the sketches was published by Jürgen Maehder, Studien zum Fragmentcharakter con Giacomo Puccinis "Turandot", Analecta Musicologica XXII, 1984, pp. 297-379; but in my opinion the start point of the sketches doesn't need a reference, because it is in every recent book on Puccini's opera, as well as in the Grove Opera. --Al Pereira(talk) 10:30, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Does this tie in with the 1990 paper by Janet Maguire (The Musical Quarterly, Vol. 74, No. 3 (1990), pp. 319-359) I keep on stumbling over (but can't access). Linuxlad (talk) 23:55, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] increase in popularity?

I note that Turandot is presently at number 12 in Opera America's listing of most performed operas. But my recollection is that this was not always so - a 1959 article in Time [2], characterises the work as 'rarely performed'; and that would seem to confirm my recollection of my student 60s (spent listening to the BBC Music Programme!), when the work still had an aura of rarity and of impregnability, enhanced by its unfinished status. Do others share this perception of a change? Why has it happened? Can it really all be down to the use in the 1990 World Cup! Bob aka Linuxlad (talk) 14:58, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe in USA. In Italy, it wasn't rarely performed. --Al Pereira(talk) 17:19, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
From Ashbrook & Powers P160 'With the onset of the depression, and because Jeritza refused to continue in the title role, Turandot was given but once [at the Met.] in the 1929/30 season, and then dropped from the repertory. Thirty years would elapse before it returned to the Metropolitan.' So,... Bob aka Linuxlad (talk) 13:01, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Later confirmation - the notes to the 1965 EMI recording (soloists Nilsson, Corelli, Scotto, Giaiotti, reissued on CD 1988) are by William Weaver who writes 'For many years however the opera's popularity lagged far behind that of P's earlier works, and to some extent it still does.' Linuxlad (talk) 16:59, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tartar king

Is the foreigner who murdered Lo u Ling an ancestor of Calaf's? I'm really not sure about this but I think it's mentioned in In questa reggia, that these events happened when a Tartar king invaded China or something like that. So, if Turandot says that Lo u Ling now lives in her again, is the same symbolically true about Calaf, so that the tragedy can be "repaired"? The criticism mentioned in the article, about their love being nothing more than physical passion, makes some sense, because there really apperas to be no other grounds for that. But perhaps they were meant to fall in love with each other, or destined, if you like, to make up for what happened. Too much symbolism in this opera, anyway :D Erunanne (talk) 09:46, 13 April 2008 (UTC)