Talk:Tudor dynasty

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[edit] Question

Is the man on the left of the picture Philip II of Spain ? --Imran 00:12 Feb 22, 2003 (UTC)

Yes, the only husband of Queen Mary I of England. User: Dimadick


From the page:

There's a formatting problem here - if you look at the wives of Henry VII, for example, each one after the first has a bullet-point next to them to keep the lists correctly formatted. That point shouldn't really be there, because it looks as though they are daughters rather than daughters-in-law of Henry VII. Try to ignore it. The same happens with other multiple marriages.

This problem is now somewhat solved with a new format. Multiple marriages still aren't entirely clear, though. Onebyone 17:56, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Arthur's marriage to Catherine is not disputed: it was the basis for the request of anulment that Henry VIII cited to the pope. (Since he wanted to marry Anne Boleyn) he argued that Catherine was his sister and therefore the whole union was incestuous. The pope refuse this argument, probably because men marrying his brothers widows was common practice. Henry didnt like that and said: pope no more! The rest of the story everybody knows... Muriel Victoria 15:36, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

There's more to it than that, though - in order to marry Catherine in the first place Henry had to get papal approval. It was this approval which disputes the marriage, since it was against church law at the time to marry your brother's widow (or your sister's widower - when Elizabeth was considering marriage to Philip of Spain this was again an issue). So saying that the marriage wasn't even disputed is taking Henry's side, since it was indeed disputed, by Henry, when it suited hs purposes... Onebyone 15:39, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Family tree

The picture of the Tudor family tree has Margaret Beaufort's birth as 1433 whilst the wiki article has 1443. Who's right?--Johnbull 02:35, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Margaret was born in 1443, not 1433. See ODNB: Michael K. Jones and Malcolm G. Underwood, ‘Beaufort, Margaret , countess of Richmond and Derby (1443–1509)’, Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004 accessed 28 Aug 2007 PeterSymonds 10:23, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Descendents of Edward IV and Henry VII

What sort of social rank would one have to bear in their family, in order to be a descendent of either?

How far up the totem pole, would you say?

This is intended to have broad answers and based on gradients of time and population, not going into specifics about exact descendents. About how common is their descent in the English or British genepool today?

I've noticed that American Presidents don't descend from either king, but the most common recent royal ancestor shared by many of us is Edward III. How common is it for anybody in the English or British genepool, to have a Protestant royal ancestor?

There is a general cutoff, isn't there?

Is it because of fratricide in the Wars of the Roses, the Tudors' "new men", or the Union of the Crowns, or the parliamentary union under Queen Anne (I can't think of any non-royal family descent from the Hanoverians within the UK)?

I'm thinking that there is a big difference between Plantagenet and Tudor descents, that the commons in all likelihood have the former and the latter is held by the lords. (just generally speaking) Then again, Tudor descent in the Welsh must be higher in general. I am further curious about pre-Royal Tudor blood in Anglo-British people today, since the status and/or concept of Welsh royalty/nobility is rather hazy in my mind. I found the Blevins aka Ap Bleddyn family of Powys in my ancestry, but have no real idea on what to make of it--or any other Welsh "native aristocracy". I might be able to find Stewart descent somewhere, from way back when. What percentage of Hanoverian background do you think that German colonists had in America?

On the British side, I have to go as far back as Welf himself...but any recent genetic relationship with the Hanoverians or the counts of Nassau are completely obscure. How does one research those other colonial people, such as the Hessians?

UK genealogy is relatively easy when focusing on English (and French) ancestries. What would a "national person" of Jerusalem (or Antioch, for example) in Crusader times be known as?

We say "American" for those Founders, but was there such a nationality-term for the Crusaders in their own domains?

I guess the term is supposed to be Levantine/Outremer, or "Crusader" as our national heritage says "Colonist"...

IP Address 12:01, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

To call them Protestant royal anscestors is incorrect as the English royal family didnt become protestant until the reigns of Edward VI and Elizabeth I and possibly beforehand arguably in Henry VIII's reign though he saw himself as a Catholic just not in league with the pope Penrithguy 21:57, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edward IV

In the table of The Tudor House (right top corner) the first king is named Eduard IV and, if I am not mistaken it should be Henry VII. Am I right or wrong.

You are right, it should be Henry VII.--Johnbull 18:06, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major Revision Needed

At the moment, this page is awful. We need to decide what it should be (an analysis of how England changed between 1485-1603, perhaps?), since at the moment it's just a ramble of historical trivia and errors... Hackloon 00:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd agree. I've no specialist knowledge of this topic so can't comment on the factual accuracy but it seems disjointed, confusing and is full of non-sequitors.Mutt Lunker 09:29, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. Pretty bad article. Too much trivial detail about the marriages without any context. The "Feudal Circumstances" is at the very least poorly named. The War of the Roses pretty much ended "medieval feudalism" in England. If there was a common theme throughout the Tudor era it was reformation and the politics between nobility at the court.
This article doesn't have to try to be too much. All it really needs is a simple list of monarchs, the origin of the Tudor family, and what ended the dynasty. Then perhaps a simple bulleted list linking to articles containing highlights of the era (reformation, spanish armada, Shakespeare, renaissance, etc). (None of these highlights really need to be spelled out here unless they deal specifically with the Tudor family). DavidRF 01:49, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I've just read this article and agree it's awful and in need of revision. Whilst I'm not a specialist, I think the 'Feudal Circumstances' section could be replaced with two shorter sections about the origins of the Tudor/Tewdwr family going back to Owain Tudor, and back further perhaps to The Lord Rhys and the eponymous Welsh ancestor Tewdwr. The second section could be about the rise of the Tudor family during the Wars of the Roses. Then a list of monarchs and a brief biography with links to the main pages for each. This would improve the article much - at the moment it's a disjointed list of advanced academic minutiae with no context whatsoever. firstfox 09:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with all the above comments. There are major errors that need to be fixed. The grammar is bad and some of the facts are wrong. I will begin a major revision today. PeterSymonds 18:32, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Major revision complete. PeterSymonds 10:32, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Welsh connection?

The article doesn't mentiowas born in Pembroke and I was under the impression that the family (or part of it) came from Anglesey, so what's the connection? --Oldak Quill 14:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Added information about the Tudor's Welsh descent from the Welsh Prince Rhys ap Gruffydd. This is the link to Wales. PeterSymonds 10:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Anne of Cleves was a foreign princess. I don't think it's accurate to call her "Yorkist." Also, what this about Henry's only loving Jane Seymour? Granted, he probably loved her best since she was meek and produced a son, but he does seem to have "loved" all his wives except Anne of Cleves. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.37.23.182 (talk)

Yes, it is likely that Henry only loved her because she produced a son. The fact that he was buried with her means little; he couldn't be buried with Catherine of Aragon, because he was technically never married to her; Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard were traitors and buried at the Chapel of St Peter ad Vincula in the Tower of London; Anne of Cleves and Catherine Parr were still alive at his death. Jane was the only wife who died while she was technically still married to Henry, and the mother of his son. PeterSymonds 10:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Royal House template

As the House of York is a cadet branch of the House of Plantagenet, and the Yorkist took the surname Plantagenet, is it correct to describe it separately to the House of Plantagenet, in the "Royal Houses" succession template?

The Yorkists are listed as part of the House of Plantagenet in the List of monarchs of England page, not separately to it, and included in the list of Plantagenet Kings in the House of Plantagenet page.

Equivalent, related comments also raised for the House of Plantagenet, House of Lancaster, and House of York "Royal Houses" succession templates.

Hey, Does the House of Grey count as a cadet branch of the House of Tudor? I mean, Jane Grey was a Tudor by her mother, But she married Guildford Dudley, so doesn't she become a member of his house? Just a thought... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.37.84.166 (talk) 00:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Drojem (talk) 02:56, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit speculation

I have removed this text re: Anne Boleyn: "It is supposed that perhaps Anne was Rh- and after her first child all successive pregnancies were at risk." The item is not sourced, is in any case supposition, and does not belong in an encyclopedic article, unless one wants to go into all of the various theories as to why Henry produced so few viable children; his conjectural syphilis is a favorite. And if we do that, we need to source the theories so readers can decide for themselves whether any particular one is by an M.D. or whatever. - PKM (talk) 03:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalization?

"The Tudor dynasty or House of Tudor (Welsh: Tudur) is an English royal dynasty that lasted 118 years, beginning in 1485. Founded by Henry Tudor, Henry was grandson of the Welsh courtier Owen Tudor.Owen Tudor was a nobody before his marrage to the Queen. Without him the Tudor dynasty would have never started!"

i think whoever wrote the above, wasn't serious... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.1.124.236 (talk) 21:18, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted the Owen Tudor was a nobody before his marrage to the Queen. Without him the Tudor dynasty would have never started! part as vandalism. EconomicsGuy (talk) 17:50, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Owen Tudor

It is unclear whether Owen Tudor and Katherine of Valois were married, and this point reamins a topic of much debate amongst historians. The article state unambiguously that there were married -despite the fact that there is no clear historical evidence one way or the other. I've amneded the article to reflect this. Indisciplined (talk) 19:39, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Welsh royal dynasty?

Just because Henry Tudor was of Welsh descent, can we really say that this was a Welsh royal dynasty? There's no precedent for it that I can see. I think perhaps we should change it back to "English royal dynasty" or perhaps, "an English royal dynasty of Welsh origin" as in the Brittanica Online Encyclopedia. Tolkien Geek (talk) 04:04, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I am not aware of any reputable source that treats the Tudors as a Welsh royal dynasty. Even the descriptor "of Welsh orgin" is deceptive because it might infer a connection to the Welsh royal house. N.B., Owen Tudor was Welsh, and high-born, but he was not royal; and his direct line to Henry Tudor was via a marriage that was not legally recognized at the time, if ever.[--Jbeans (talk) 06:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)]