Talk:Trick-or-treating

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In Scotland, the children are only supposed to receive treats if they perform tricks

So why is it not called Trick-for-treat? Andy G 17:37 4 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The trick FOR treat practice derives from trick OR treat, appearing in isolated accounts in the U.S. just a couple of years after the invention of the phrase in the early 1930s. The "trick" of the phrase originally meant "prank," but as Halloween pranking was forgotten, some homeowners (to interact with their young visitors) began demanding a "trick"--meaning a "stunt." I recall those demands in the late 1950s in Southern California and being confused by them: "Trick or treat" to me was meaningless; it was just something I'd been told to say to get candy.--Bentruwe 19:09, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

It's called guising. The article's a bit misleading by mentioning "trick" here; I'll see what I can do about that. Mendor 13:30, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)

"It originated in Great Britain and Ireland and is still popular in many parts of Scotland, England, and Ireland"

Dit it, and is it!? Most people I know think of it as very much an 'American import' and not all British. Mintguy
It's Celtic, not British. Guising is the original form. The only reason it exist in America is because of the Scottish and Irish emigrants who took it there. — 62.6.139.10 07:24, 1 November 2005
I agree - some kids here in AU where i live came to my door trick or treating - i gave them some chocolate but i was seriously tempted to say "This is not the USA and could you find someone else to annoy?" PMA 13:33, Feb 21, 2004 (UTC) (I like kids, i really do!)
There is no evidence to support the claim that trick-or-treating was brought to America. The earliest known instance of ritual begging on Halloween in English-speaking America is from 1915, seventy years after the peak of Irish immigration to America. It did not become a widespread practice until the mid-1930s. And when it did arise in America, it was not in those areas of the United States that had the highest concentrations of Irish Americans or Scottish Americans, but in the West and Midwest. The existance of similar practices on each side of the Atlantic does not mean one was the origin of the other. — Walloon 12:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I grew up in Scotland in the 1930's and I don't remember Halloween being celebrated, and by the way Christmas wasn't celebrated here either. You know, we Scots invented everything from the wheel to the moon landing. But Halloween getting more popular due to American popular culture.83.70.163.125 18:09, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

There is possibly some confusion of Halloween with Bonfire Night Celebrations, on Bonfire Night an effigy of the pope is burned and there is the tradition of people making the guy and of children parading it around - it's a Protestant tradition on the anniversary of the foiling of the Gunpowder Plot more in common with the Orangemen's marches celebrating the victory at the Battle of the Boyne. Christmas and Easter of course wasn't celebrated in Reformed Churches and until the 18th century in the Church of England because the date of Jesus's birth wasn't given in the Bible and they had not been ordained in the Bible as something to be celebrated, although Reformed Churches did adopt the Lord's Day, these days though even the Free Church of Scotland is celebrating Christmas leaving only The Free Church Continuing and Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland left maintaining the Orthodox Protestant position among Reformed denominations.--Lord of the Isles 20:16, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not really of Irish or British origin. It originally came out of "souling", a European tradation, where the young poor would dress up, knock on the doors of the better off, and offer prayers for the souls departed, and then might be treated to a little gift of food or money. This very practice is documented in Dublin journals in the 17th centuary. Taramoon 22:17, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Trick-or-treating is called "ritual begging" by ethnographers; it's been invented and reinvented many times, in many cultures, including ancient Greece. There was no trick-or-treating in the U.S. until the 1930s; "proto"trick-or-treating began in the 1910s. Proto-trick-or-treating lacks one or more of the elements: costumes, going door to door, asking for a treat, a ritualized (if unwitting) threat of damage. Under the pressures of the Depression, ritualized begging was independently invented in many places in the U.S.; in the initial years, children said different things in different places: "Handout!" "Nuts! We want nuts!" "Anything for Halloween?" The phrase "trick or treat" (possibly invented by an anonymous Portland Oregonian news writer in 1934) caught on, sweeping across the country over the next twenty years. When the practice was finally turned into an industry it was ripe for export to other countries.--Bentruwe 19:21, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Halloween is certainly NOT an American invention, nor is the begging tradition associated with it. If I cared enough, I'd clean up the wild inaccuracies of this article. Has anyone else detected the sublte anti-Irish bias of this article both in relation to the origins of Halloween and trick or treating? It is well settled that Halloween evolved from the celtic festival Samhain and was purposely co-opted by the Church and subsumed into the All Saints celebrations. Being from Ireland (Co. Ciarrai), I can assure we had trick or treating in the 60s and 70s and my grandparents attest to it being part of the Irish Halloween tradition well before that. We followed the trick for treat model where we would perform a song, poem or joke for the treat. — 12.37.61.2 16:33, 30 October 2006 (UTC

This article does not say that Halloween was an American invention. It says there is no evidence that trick-or-treating was brought over to America by immigrants, and it says that trick-or-treating may have developed in America independent of any ritual begging analogues in Ireland or Britain. Keep in mind that the peak of Irish immigration to America was during the Famine in the 1840s. Yet except for isolated references in 1915 and 1920, the earliest known practices of trick-or-treating in America were not until 90 years later, in the 1930s. And it didn't arise in the Eastern states, the area of the country with the highet concentrations of Irish Americans, but in the West and Midwest. As I wrote above, the existance of similar practices on each side of the Atlantic does not mean one was the origin of the other.
Also, there is no documentary evidence that Samhain was "purposely" co-opted by the Catholic Church by the placement of All Hallows (All Saints) Day. Read the section in the Halloween article on the origins of All Saints Day, which originated as a strictly local holy day in Rome, and was later expanded churchwide. — Walloon 23:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

AIUI the "treat" part of the trick or treat was part of the old European custom. The Americans added the "trick" part all by themselves. Because it's been seen on American TV shows it is now being imported back into the UK but the older teenager's idea of a "trick" can be very puzzling or even threatening to older people who don't watch American TV shows. The "trick or treat" can be seen as a form of "demanding money with menaces" -- SteveCrook 13:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] Cleanup

The unsubstantiated claim that "all pre-1940 uses of the term "trick-or-treat" are from the western United States." is incorrect. There are numerous newspaper articles from non-western US states from the 1930s. See http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/trick-or-treat.html for some verifiable examples.

Also, "most significantly in the United Kingdom where the police have threatened to prosecute parents of children who allow their kids to do it". That gives the impression that trick or treating is generally considered illegal in the UK. It is seen as an unwelcome US import by many adults, but it is in no sense illegal. — Cisgjm 05:55, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I've also no recollection of ever hearing about the possibility of parents being prosecuted. I think we need a source for this. Tim 09:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I've added a couple of citations for threatened police prosecutions, as well as for active discouragement of trick-or-treating this year. Nick Cooper 13:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Cisgjm, Please explain what you mean. I went to the page you linked above, and it contains citations of the use of the term "trick-or-treat" only from the states of Oregon, Montana, and Nevada — all western states. No citations from non-western states. — Walloon 12:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

You state no sources for any of your claims about the practices origins, or for your claims that it is losing popularity in the USA since, or that some cities ban it. State your source or delete your claims!!!!!!! — 24.11.154.78 16:22, 28 October 2005

Where do you expect to find a trick-or-treating expert? I history professor would be a good start. — 69.47.185.144 14:48, 30 October 2005

If nobody can be an expert, then there should not even be an article, because the person who wrote it is wrong. The stuff in this article is WRONG! I happen to know that Trick or treating, the practice of dressing up in costumes and begging door to door for goodies, is comes from the late medieval practice of "souling," when poor folk would go door to door, receiving food in return for prayers for the dead. I do ot remember the source, I have no source to site, therefore I a not changing the articel, but someone should fix it.

I also do not see any evidence showing that "Some cities, citing public safety, have banned trick-or-treating outright. Reasons given often have to do with a supposed rise in kidnapping attempts during Hallowe'en, or because of a glut of "tricks" or vandalism. Occasionally a city will make a public proclamation that they as a community oppose trick-or-treating for health or religious reasons. Few cities have banned it for more than a few years without it being at least unofficially reinstated. In 2001 in the United States, trick-or-treating was much less popular than it had been in previous years, with many communities asking parents to restrict their children's activities if not banning it altogether."

Cite a source or show some evidence, prove it because I don't believe you. — 24.11.154.78 13:23, 1 November 2005

It does need references. I've heard about things like that before and wouldn't be suprised if it was true. However sources are needed.Falphin 00:54, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm an expert (though I prefer the word "authority"). See my book; it's loaded with sources. --Bentruwe 19:21, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Searching "banned trick-or-treating outright -Wikipedia" at Google seems to get some trick-or-treating bans, but we need verifiable sources to write them in the article.--Jusjih 10:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Album: Trick or Treat

There's a nirvana bootleg album called "Trick or Treat." It was recorded on halloween. There's no article on this, or mention of it. Perhaps there should be? Or something like "other uses in popular culture" or something. — 68.239.225.159 14:46, 4 February 2006

i made a disambig page for trick or treat which includes the album, but theres no article for it yet. id appriciate someone familiar with the whole redirection+disambig coding process would check mine out. i havent completed it yet and im not sure if itll work. Urukagina 02:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

in fact, after a few minutes, i still dont know where the "redirected from" text comes from, so i guess the disambig will just float out there for a while. Urukagina 02:28, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I got it worked out for you. The "redirected from" text is part of the MediaWiki software Wikipedia runs. It just tells you that you typed in Trick or treat but the page is located at Trick-or-treating. It's just an organizational thing. Timrem 04:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Guising

I have a real problem with the definition given here for "guising." Obviously this person never heard of or read Nigel Pennick. He wrote an excellent book on this subject titled "Crossing the Borderlines." Guising has nothing to do with trick-or-treating, or Halloween. The guisers were men and women who disguise themselves as creatures...their faces masked in wild and fearsome shapes, bodies clad in animal skins, skulls of various animals mounted on poles. While this may indeed sound like Halloween, guising was actually a ritual more commonly performed during the time of Midwinter in December, to honor the spirits and ask them to bring prosperity in the new year. This is an old ancient custom that goes back to the early days of man and civilization, and shamanic practices. Guising is a transformative experience where one steps out of time and into the Otherworld. Let's not confuse it with the modern day juvenile practice of tricking someone into giving you candy. Ocean1025 00:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC) Ocean1025

[edit] What kind of tricks?

What kind of tricks are there? For adults working at night shifts, their being disturbed is already a serious trick.--Jusjih 10:04, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reasons for not promoting to good article

The first three paragraphs of history are great and meticulously referenced, but the last three paragraphs are not. If it is possible some references for these paragraphs would be helpful. The images could use some reformatting (consider making them smaller with more helpful captions) and the last three paragraphs of the History section might be better placed under a new heading. Finally the external links of the article need to be cleaned up as they are little help on the subject at all. Cedars 00:34, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of the phrase trick or treat

So what is the ritual?

From what I understand it to be the little ghouls coming knocking on your door and start shouting trick or treat! If you don;t have any thing to offer them or you don;t want to offer them anything then you ask for a trick. So they play a trick on you (or do you play a trick on them?), otherwise you say treat and offer them treats. — Rodneymus 14:05, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The phase originally meant "Give us a treat, or we will play a trick [prank] on you." The pranks were various kinds of vandalism on one's home and property. — Walloon 02:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


The article is confusing

It says

The "treat" part of "trick or treat" is a plea for some sort of sweet. The "trick" part is asking the homeowner to play a trick on the enquirer instead.

So it is implying the the trick part is asking the home owner to perform a trick and not a threat of trick (prank) if the home owner refuses a treat.

However it then goes on to say

"the United Kingdom, where the police have threatened to prosecute parents who allow their children to carry out the "trick" element"

So is the "Trick or Treat" part asking the home owner "Do a trick for us or give us candy" or is it saying "Give us candy or we will play a trick on you"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.107.0.103 (talk) 20:37, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 'Charity, please.'

I'm not Quebecois, and the French dialect changes from region to region, but around here 'La charite s'il vous plait' translates to 'Donations please.'. Is there someone more qualified who can correct me/this ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.68.227.35 (talk) 20:56, 1 February 2007 (UTC).


i watched a documentary about holidays and halloween was one of them and the man spoke that halloween was actually created by the druids (a pagen religon/cult)that they would go door to door or as you would say trik-or-treating which was what they did and what they would do is knock on the door and if the owner of house would caoperate with then thay would take a member of there family for sacrifice in the trhee day fire festaval and when thay left they would leave a previously hollowed out pumpkin filled with human fat on their door step and light it on fire and this would keep away the deemons away for those three days if they didnt they would paint a pentagram on their door in human blood and that night someone would die in that household. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.150.118.246 (talk)

Unfortunately, recollections of an unnamed person in an unnamed television documentary are of little use for Wikipedia. Nowhere else have I read this about the Druids, of whom we know very little actual information, and to whom a lot of bogus folklore has been attributed. One thing we know that they could not have done is leave a hollowed out pumpkin on someone's doorstep — pumpkins are native to the New World. — Walloon 02:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] We Wish You a Merry Christmas

The Christmas carol We Wish You a Merry Christmas contains the lines "Oh, bring us a figgy pudding" and "We won't go until we get some", which seems to be a similar kind of "extortion". --Palnatoke 22:11, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. Ritualized begging on holidays, especially Christmas and New Year's Day, is a tradition going back centuries. — Walloon 23:43, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Back to front

Surely this article is back to front. It begins with a Halloween traditon which is attested only in America and only since the early 20th century. Then it goes on to talk about the related tradition in the Celtic heartlands as though that were the variant. But guising comes first, historically and logically. --Doric Loon 19:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, that is a deliberate point of contention in the latest scholarship — whether they actually are related. The traditional view was that nearly all Hallowe'en traditions originated with the Celts, and go back hundreds if not thousands of years. Yet more careful modern research has failed to substantiate that traditional view with actual historical evidence. There is very little primary documentation of costuming or masking on Hallowe'en before 1900, on either side of the Atlantic.
Likewise, although the traditional view has been that American trick-or-treating was adapated from some British or Irish antecedent (e.g., souling), no actual connection has been found and documented. Trick-or-treating in America was virtually unknown before the 1930s, several generations after the peaks of Irish and Scottish immigration to America. The fact that A came before B does not necessarily mean that B is related to A, much less that A caused B. The American custom of trick-or-treating appears to have an independent origin in the 20th century, unrelated to any British or Irish antecedents.
I know that this makes some British and Irish people quite angry (I've dealt with one or two!), but when challenged, they have been unable to provide primary documentation of Halloween masking or costuming before 1900, or any documented connection between American trick-or-treating and British or Irish antecedents. — Walloon 23:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree up to a point. The so-called celtic origin story is something of a myth. One element of it is nationalistic competition with 'the English' which U.S. editors might take note of. Looking at this info about the Peak District (which is in England):
All the seasons are celebrated in the Peak, with such local customs as Garland Day and maypole dancing in the spring, well dressing in the summer, church clypping in the autumn, and the ghost of Christmas Past is kept alive and well by certain local folk `masquerading in the guise of mummers'. .... a `mummer' is `one who masquerades in a folk play, usually at Christmas' - and `mumming' is `a show without reality; a foolish ceremonial', whilst a `guiser' is `a person in disguise, dressed up in costume; a Christmas mummer; one who goes guising'" (Guising, from which is derived the word geezer apparently; for some reason I find that fascinating but anyway...)
Masking and costuming are just folk traditions everywhere. I'm sure you're not suggesting Americans of European descent made all that stuff up - they brought those things with them. But I agree with the lack of evidence that guising happened at Halloween in particular. It looks more like a practice at the end of the year, for example the Bavarian Wild Men (December 6) who knock on doors to steal kisses from women. A little later (In Britain/England I don't care which) mummers in disguise visit houses at night to give gifts - a mid-winter tradition of sharing Luck. My copy of "The Seven Ages of Theatre" suggests this provides the origins of the court masque. And so on. It's not 'celtic', or particularly British/Irish, just common and pre-Christian, but not so far as I can find out traditionally at Halloween. Trick or Treating at Halloween is all-American so far as I can tell. If it makes Europeans feel better perhaps it could be thought of as one of those transatlantic 'misunderstandings' or cultural transpositions, something half-remembered takes a different form. I'm just trying to make everybody happy :) Hakluyt bean 13:00, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] zebra

hey in that 1 picture of TOTing on the prarie-is that a zebra in the back ground?I am Paranoid 17:01, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it's a horse or pony dressed as a zebra for halloween.—Chowbok ☠ 17:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Irish immigration to US

There are a number of falsehoods in this article, among them the the "first great wave" of Irish immigration was not unitl the middle of the 1800s - in fact it was the 1770s. See Scots-Irish American.

In addition, to assert there was no trick-or-treating on the east coast before WWII is absurd. Shoreranger 03:01, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Can you present documentation that there was trick-or-treating on the East Coast before World War II? — Walloon 04:07, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] On Halloween?

I think it should say something like "on or before Halloween." In my part of Pennsylvania, at least, trick-or-treat is the Friday before Halloween so that kids aren't out late and consuming sugar before a school day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.172.186.128 (talk) 00:16, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Better definition?

I came to this article to try to understand the meaning of the child's question "trick or treat". The article is excellent on the social history of the custom but does not address this basic question. What are the alternatives being offered to the adult who opens the door? Who tricks whom or gives whom a treat? Please revise the start of the article to explain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.210.189.17 (talk) 08:22, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

There was an explanation of the "trick" part of "trick or treat" further down in the article. I moved it up to the introductory paragraph. — Walloon 08:56, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
That clears it up nicely; many thanks - AG. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.210.33.57 (talk) 22:46, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Too many images?

I think that there are too many images in this article... currently there are 4 images for 2 pages of text. How many family photos do we need of what is objectively the same? How about we just add a link to the commons? I think one good picture of a trick-or-treater would be fine, Wikipedia is not a photo album!!! --DotDarkCloud 10:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ¿Me da mi calaverita?

In Mexico, the common frase for trick or treat is "¿me da mi calaverita?" wich is translated by "Could you give me my little skull?". Calaverita refers to the traditional candy skull that is given in the Day of the Dead (Día de muertos or día de los fieles difuntos). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.30.13.239 (talk) 19:31, 31 October 2007 (UTC)