Talk:Trade route from the Varangians to the Greeks

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It is interesting that this article can talk about this trade route and avoid mentioning the Varangians as anything but a geographic location.--Wiglaf 06:36, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • You are more than welcome to add info about the Varangians. If you followed the COTW discussion of this article, there are very few books on this topic. I translated this text from the Soviet Encyclopedia. Obviously, they paid more attention to Kievan Rus'. KNewman 06:46, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)
Of course :).--Wiglaf 07:03, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Title

The title of the article sounds kind of strange...it needs to be "more English-sounding." That's the best way I can describe it. Right now it sounds like, yes, you translated it from Russian :) "The Viking Road to Byzantium" is the name (in English) of a book on this subject, but that probably wouldn't work. What about "Varangian-Byzantine trade route", or something like that? Adam Bishop 04:10, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

I agree. The name of the article is a direct translation from Russian and Varangian-Byzantine trade route sounds more idiomatic. Would KNewman object to renaming the article?--Wiglaf 07:13, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
    • I wouldn't mind, of course. I just wasn't sure about its official name in English, so I translated it word for word. KNewman 02:07, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Idäntien Kulkijat = Eastway Wanderers

This is in my opinion the correct transliteration for the Varakkis / Varjags (armed Pedlars) who travelled through Roshland to Constantinople, Byzantium (Miikkeli / Miklagård / Miklagard) and to Caspian Sea along Valgia (Valka) Raw, Itel, later Russians Volga. The Rootshis / Ruotshis appeared to these river routes c. after 550. They left their mark to Russian history in place names which exists still today. Originally they were not of Scandinavian origin, but of Finno Baltic origin. The Scandinavian pedlars joined later, c. 750 - 850 to Eastway Wanderers. They have not left any signigicant place names in todays Russian map exept Novgorod, (Nygård) which in fact, had also at least eight other names. The key is knowledge of Finno Ugrian languages.

Suomenlahti / Soomelaht / Finskaviken /Kvenoviken = Bay of Finland (Kvenoland)

Nevajoki = Neva River (neva = march, swamp, fen) = Fen River

Nevajärvi, later Laatokka = Lake Fen (Russian Ozero Ladozhkoje)

Alavanmaanjoki,later Olhavanjoki = Low Land River (Russian Reka Volhov)

Ilmajärvi, Ilmjärv = Air Lake (Russian Ozero Ilmen)

Palajoki = Bit River (Russian Reka Pola)

Valtavan mäet = Enermous Hills (Russian Kheberet Valdai ) = Valdai Uphills or Valdai Uplands.

Rootshien / Ruotshien Kannas = Rosh Isthmus ( Roshihij Peresheek)

Valgiajogi (Valkajoki) = White River (Russian Mother Volga)

Raw = Mordvan name of Valgia River

Itel = Tatar (Turkic) name for Valgia / Volga River

Väinäjoki = Latvian Daugava River, (Russian Zapadnaja Dvina)

Tesnajoki = (Russian Desna)

Lovattijoki = (Russian Reka Lovat)

Dnjepr (already in area settled by Eastern Slavs, no ancient Finno Baltic name traced yet)

Kijav, Kijev = Kvenugård / Kvenugard / Kainuunlinna / Kywa

JN

Your source seems to have purged the account of Scandinavians, so I did some fact checking, and checked with the source you refer to :). Concerning the name, there is no "official" name in English. Adam Bishop thinks that it does not sound idiomatic in English, and perhaps the "varangian road to Byzantium" would be the most accurate solution.--Wiglaf 08:16, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

I have tried to Google the most common name for this route in English, and changed the name. I hope that nobody objects.--Wiglaf 15:32, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Should be moved to Varangian-Greek Trade Route. --Macarion 00:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Magocsi (A History of Ukraine, 1996) refers to it by the translated name in quotation marks, as the “watercourse ‘from the Varangians to the Greeks’”. I think the current title Trade route from the Varangians to the Greeks is fine.  —Michael Z. 2006-09-21 18:08 Z

I have finally moved to a more idiomatic title. Adam Bishop 08:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, Ghirlandajo, we discussed this a year and a half ago, what is the problem now? Adam Bishop 16:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

There are absolutely no references or precedence for "Varangian-Byzantine trade route", it is a neologism! Moving back to the old name; this is how it has been known for a millenium. -- Petri Krohn 21:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First steps to a map

I've made an initial version of a map with locations plotted for this article, at Image:Route from the Varangians to the Greeks.png. It still needs the actual route plotted, but it's easy to recreate in line-art format, if you're handy with Illustrator. Details are on the image description page.

For an example of how it should look, see Magocsi (1996) A History of Ukraine, p. 59.  —Michael Z. 2006-09-22 02:04 Z

[edit] Rapid names and translations

The names for the rapids, spelling and above all, meanings are definetly more ambiguous than given here. See Blöndal: "The Varangians of Byzantium" and Ellis Davidson "The Viking Road to Byzantium". In general it appears that this article is based on a very narrow source of information. Aiforr 03:54, 14 January 2007 (UTC)