Talk:Tongva language

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Anybody have info on what toponyms such as Pacoima, Azusa, and Tujunga mean in Tongva? I expect some may be of unknown meaning however. Alexander 007 21:22, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Not extinct

I reverted the addition of Tongva to the extinct languages category. Inasmuch as Tongva descendents speak it, I think it is a little early to call it extinct. If the category were "Languages that are not passed on as birth languages", I'd agree.--Curtis Clark 05:37, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Black Bear

I struck:

(the black bear was not introduced into southern California until the 1930's)

until it has a reference. It's here waiting to go back into the article. John Elder 04:08, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

You can put it back now, or better, remove the Tongva word, since it most likely means something else. --Curtis Clark 04:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

• http://www.dfg.ca.gov/hunting/bear/population.html
• http://socalcampi3.web103.discountasp.net/fieldguide/mammal/californiablackbear.html
• http://www.ci.monrovia.ca.us/city_hall/public_works/canyon_park/black_bear.htm

In Wildlife of the Southern California Mountains, Harold DeLisle states that ursus americanus had become extinct by the early twentieth century. He confirms the re-introduction by the department of Fish and Game in the 1930s. I think this is a fascinating story, but don't you think it better belongs in the American Black Bear article? For historical reasons, I would object to removing the reference, even if it were wrong. Part of understanding the preservation of a language is understanding the sources ... complete with their failings. That's one reason I posted the numerous parallel sources - we can wonder how much is varying dialect, and how much was the misunderstanding of the sources. I plan on working with this further, adding some more words, and perhaps putting the word lists into table form. John Elder 08:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

1. I will check with my colleague, the bear expert Glen Stewart, when he gets back from Africa.
2. I agree with most of what you say, but if in fact there were no black bears in southern California when Merriam compiled his list, the point is worth noting. If he actually showed his respondents a black bear (perhaps a skin), their reaction might have been along the lines of, "It looks like a bear, but it's black. Let's tell him it's a 'black' 'bear'." There's a tendency to take what non-Indian authors say at face value (as contrasted with simply reporting it accurately) which can end up being disrespectful of the respondents. I was involved in a discussion a while back about the Chumash word huču, which means "dog". The assertion had been made that it was a loan word from Spanish, from a colloquial Spanish word (that I have forgotten) that means "cur". I pointed out that the word in some supposedly related Yuman languages is hutt, but it is different in the geographically intervening Takic languages (including Tongva), and that this would suggest it is indigenous. But a shiny theory often blinds people to the evidence, which in this case was discounted.--Curtis Clark 13:32, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Excellent! I'll see if the San Bernardino natural history museum can shed any light on this. If there were no black bears for the Tongva people to have a word for, then this raises a very interesting point, probably deserving either its own article or at least a major section in a pre-existing article. Any ideas about where? John Elder 09:42, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Ask Gerald Braden (if he still works there). He was Glen's graduate student. As for not having a word for something, and yet reporting one anyway, the kangaroo story turns out to be false, but I'm sure there are other examples.--Curtis Clark 14:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)