Talk:Tomte

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents

[edit] Tomten, Tomte

There are some Wikipedia articles which refer to "Tomten" and some "Tomte". Is this a problem? - dcljr 19:49, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"En tomte" is Swedish for a tomte. "Tomten" is Swedish for the tomte. --Lakefall 19:17, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I guess I would recommend the indefinite form "tomte", but if we have redirections, it shouldn't be a major problem.
I'm Swedish, and when I say Tomten I refer to Father Christmas (it literally means "The Tomte"). When I say tomte it's just any tomte in general. The difference between tomten and tomte is like the difference between God and a god. /Benzocaine (talk) 16:48, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

In wikipedia in general it seems Tomte is used everywere. I find that odd when that is only a swedish word and Nisse is much more common (used in Norway, Denmark and parts of Sweden). Should we rename the article, or are there too many swedish contributors who oppose a less swedish bias?

Strangely, Nisse seems more common on the Interwiki. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 16:37, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm Swedish myself, so I rather like the fact that "tomte" is used, but I wonder if "Scandinavian gnome" would not be more appropriate, similar to the way the article on Dvergar/Dvärgar/Dverger/Dværger/Dverga/Kääpiöitä is titled "Norse dwarves" and the article on Εὐκλείδης/Eukleidēs is titled Euclid. We can certainly have "Nisse", "Tomte" and so forth redirect here, but coining an English term would probably be best if we want to make this article culturally neutral. --TheFinalFraek (talk) 08:52, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

In Denmark the " julenisse" and the " julemand" are two different things. The julenisse is the creature from the scandinavian folklore which protect the house ,but the " julemand " is just the danish word for santa claus/ father christmas.

[edit] Garden gnomes

Could someone post about how this ancient, pagan Norse figure turned into the modern day garden gnomes we have around outside of Scandinavia? - Bloodofox 9/28/05

Nisse is actually Scandinavian for gnome, so they didn't turn anywhere they are the same.

The Jultomte and the Santa Claus are the same. The tomte that wants porridge is another creature. The difference between the Jultomte and Santa Claus is that the Jultomte comes through the door and that he comes on Christmas Eve instead of Christmas Day. Then the Jultomte can live on the North Pole but we should now that Greenlandand Lappland are north of the pole circle.

[edit] Tomte sport

Is this a real sport? Is it notable? It looks like nonsense. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 08:29, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I deleted it per WP:NFT. —Ashley Y 07:29, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Julemanden

There is some confusion here between nissen and Julemanden.

The Danish name for Santa is Julemanden (he Christmass Man). It is he who lives in Greenland. When nisser is said to live in Greenland, it is as Santa's little helpers. Santa has no assosiation with elves. He is much as in the US, including the flying sled. However, since the gifts are given after dinner on Christmass eve in these parts, he can not sneak in during the night. If you have someone dress up he may knock on the door, or simply appear in the living room.

If a nisse rather than Julemanden is said to bring the gifts, he does not live in Greenland. He usually lives in the attic of the house. While he may be called nissen, "the nisse", this is understood to mean "the nisse that lives in this house", not "the one and only nisse" (as opposed to Julemanden, who is a singular individual). If you have someone dress up as a nisse, he should not knock on the door, since the nisse lives in the house.

Klausok 17:16, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

In Norwegian, "Julenissen" is Santa Claus, "Nissen" is the small protector gnome. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 13:13, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
But nowadays, "nissen" usually means "julenissen". People genereally don't talk about any other kind of nisse. 195.159.217.98 (talk) 10:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC) (Nick)
I Denmark where I live, I rarely hear people speak about julenisser (Christmas nisses), but nisses are almost only mentioned at Christmas time ( hear understood as most of December ) NLEenglish (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 04:01, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nisse (Nils), St. Nikolas

This is something I've never been able to find an answer to, and even with all the information in the wikipedia "Santa Claus" and "Tomte" articles, it isn't there. Is it a coincidence that the word "nisse" has the same etymology as Santa Claus? "Nisse" comes from "Nils", the Scandinavian version of "Nikolas". But Nissen/Tomten is originally a completely separate tradition from St. Nikolas or Sinterclaas. They merged later, first in Denmark in the 1840s according to this article. Either the common name is completely coincidental; or the words "nisse" or "tomtenisse" for the Scandinavian creature was influences by St. Nikolas long before nissen was connected to Christmas, which seems unlikely. Here in Norway the going explanation of the origins of Julenissen is that the word "nisse" comes from St. Nikolas. I've read this countless times, but I can't make it fit. 195.159.217.98 (talk) 10:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC) (Nick)

One ancient name for this creature or spirit in Norwegian was "bon" (="bonden", i.e. the farmer), often combined to "godbon" (good "bon") or "haugbon" (mound "bon"). This is from this source. It also says that the origin of this creature (the bon) was "the old farmer, he who once in pre-Christian times was laid in mound with weapons and tools to watch over the farm and the people there." So at some point the bon (or tomte, haugkall, tomtegubbe, tomtebonde) could have been connected to the St. Nikolas myths and the word nisse started being used. I have no idea if this would be before the appearance of Julenissen in the latter half of the 1800s in Norway.195.159.217.98 (talk) 11:00, 30 November 2007 (UTC) (Nick)
More research. From Norwegian Wikipedia:

The word "nisse" comes from Denmark, where the creature could also be called "Niels", "Niels Gårdbo" or "Pug". "Nisse" was also used in Skåne (Sweden) and in Norway mostly in the East. The name is an abbrevation of Nikolaos or Nils, and came via Germany after the Reformation. The modern julenissen is rooted in the saint figure St. Nikolaos, and it was probably the similarity of the names "Nikolaos" and "nisse" which led to a mixing with julenissen in the 1800s and connected the farm nisse with Christmas.

"Niels Gårdbo" means something like Niels farm dweller, and "Pug" is obviously connected with Puck.
From [1], in Danish:

In older times nissen was also called Gårdbo. In Sweden he was called "tomte" and in Norway "gardvord". ... "Nis" or "Nisse" is an abbrevation of the boys' name Niels. "Nisse" is also also a name - not just a species! Perhaps in reality it's a noa-name, a kind of "cover name", which one could use because the real name was too secret and dangerous?

I have no idea what "noa-name" is in English, but it describes a euphemism used for creatures or things that it's dangerous to name, in old superstition.
Nothing there about St. Nikolas. I've also found out that Nils/Niels was a Scandinavian name at least from the 1455 (first recorded use in Sweden), and there's nothing about this name having its origin in the Catholic Saint specifically. Most likely, since Nils/Niels/Nisse became a common name in Scandinavia, its use for farm spirits was completely unrelated to St. Nikolas (unlike what many articles claim). And so it was actually a coincidence that this creature, which was later connected to St. Nikolas, and even used as a model to some degree for the developing physical appearance of the modern Santa Claus, already shared a name with the saint. 195.159.217.98 13:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC) (Nick)

I think it is very difficult to tell since people in the Romanticism often changed the folklore according to their own agenda. It way very well be (and I'm speculating here) that the word "nisse", as referring to "tomte", started to appear in the 19:th century with the birth of Santa Claus. /Benzocaine (talk) 17:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

P.S. At least in Sweden, instead of Santa Claus, there used to be a man known as "Julbocken" ("The Christmas goat") who came with the presents. I think this tradition of the goat originally came from Germany. And this was not very long time ago. I think my grandparents didn't have a Santa Claus, but a Julbock. Disney and Coca Cola have done a great job in marketing their Father Christmas... /Benzocaine (talk) 17:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)