Talk:Toby Ziegler

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[edit] Toby's law degree

In the second season episode, And It's Surely to Their Credit, Josh is told that the Southern Poverty Law Center wants him to sue the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. When discussing this in the Cheif of Staff's office, Leo, Toby, Sam and Josh are present. Leo states two things that indicate Toby is a lawyer:

Everyone in the room is a lawyer!, and That said, say the word and we'll (implied to be Leo and Toby) take a leave of absence and join your legal team.

This leads me to believe that Toby is a lawyer. Goodness, everyone else on the show is except the Bartlet's! Comment if you disagree. -Scm83x 20:00, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

In Season 4, Episode 11 or so, when Toby and Will are first working together, Will tells Toby that he is a lawyer and Toby makes a negative remark. It definitely does not give anyone the impression that Toby is a lawyer, too. Personally, I don't think the show has ever made it clear one way or the other. And I don't think speculation and trivia and the nitty-gritty details belong in an encyclopedia. Rlove 21:05, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Ah hah! Finally! See Season 4, Episode 17, about the Federal Whistleblower case. Toby calls in Josh specifically to get a lawyer in the room and admonishes Josh when a piece of federal law slips his mind and he makes a mistake. They make it clear that Josh went to law school, Toby did not, and that Tobdy needs Josh for law advice. Removing the "is a lawyer" bit -- which never had much evidence, anyhow. I would also like to stress that this is not a fan site and, as such, we should not put down speculation or presumptions, but only a basic encyclopedic outline of the character. So even before my evidence today, we really did not have enough to make the claim in the article. Rlove 02:44, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
He wasn't a lawyer at least to the best of my knowledge. Also the discussion boards are for all sorts of rambling. Toby is a Political Drifter who found something with Bartlet. (JJGlendenning 04:23, 4 December 2005 (UTC))
He's not a lawyer, and I've removed this from the article. Sam was speaking in generalizations when he said "Everyone in the room's a lawyer." as it would have been awkward and unrealistic to say "Everyone in the room except Toby's a lawyer." The "we" implied in Leo's declaration of joining Josh's legal team could well have only implied Sam and himself, and even if it didn't Toby's an intelligent enough guy that it certainly wouldn't be to Josh's destriment to have him involved. But the events of "Life on Mars" make it clear that Toby's not a lawyer and no law degree is ever mentioned, nor does it fit with the other knowledge we have of Toby's background. --Harlequin212121 09:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Post West Wing Life

Teaching at Columbia? My interpretation of this exchange at the start of Season 7 was that he was LIVING in Columbia (The Country, not the School), for reasons that later become obvious...

I guess we will find out -- and we should not write on the topic until we do -- but I disagree. He is from NY, he is an intellectual, teaching at Columbia makes sense. If he were hiding in Columbia, how is he in the states now? Anyhow, only a few episodes left.. Rlove 17:26, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
While it's certainly reasonable to assume that most likely Toby works at Columbia University, it is also possible he's spending time in Colombia the country. Without any reference to suggest one way or another, I'm removing the reference. Doctofunk 16:44, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Did Josh realy wanted Toby at the Santos campaign?

"When Josh left the White House towards the end of Bartlet's second term to run a Presidential campaign and didn't take Toby with him, Toby viewed this as a betrayal and was extremely hostile to Josh until long after." I got the impression Toby didn't want at all to come with Josh, because he didn't believe Santos was the man for the Democrats. Second, Toby didn't want to leave Bartlet and thought Josh abandoned the president. Stevendirk 14:08, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nature of Crime?

WHAT the crime was was clearly explained; however, what exactly was the NATURE of it? Treason? Fraud? Etc? What would be the legal term? Thanks in advance. Jessikins 22:44, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but I think it's simply called "disclosure of classified information." (The only one-word summary I can think of that could possibly apply would be espionage, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't apply here, since Toby wasn't "spying" in any way.)--Hnsampat 00:11, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


any allusion to treason should be removed 72.189.90.159 01:25, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reform clues

In the episode with the female cantor and the organ, isn't Rabbi Glassman's strikingly anti-fundamentalist speech a more certain hint that Toby belongs to a Reform temple than the clues listed in the article? Or would mentioning it just be gilding the lily? Kasreyn 02:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, this whole issue is pretty speculative, which would constitute original research. I don't think it is ever explicitly said that Toby is part of a Reform temple. I've removed that tidbit of speculation from the article entirely. --Hnsampat 02:33, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Schiff on West Wing1.jpg

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BetacommandBot 10:25, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Toby/CJ "flirting" relationship

There's a short paragraph in the "At the White House" section where it is stated that Toby's closest relationship at the White House was with C.J. and that this relationship had a "flirtatious" aspect to it. It essentially suggests that there is some romantic subtext between the two characters. The only source cited for this is an interview that Richard Schiff gave on The View. Reading the transcript of that interview, I read it to mean the Schiff was lightheartedly suggesting that Toby and C.J. will end up as a couple, not meaning to seriously suggest such a possibility. No other sources have been cited for such "flirting" aspect of their relationship and frankly I think it remains speculative at best. (Even if Richard Schiff was being serious, he was still speculating as well.) I think, therefore, that this mention ought to be removed as unsourced speculation. (FYI, my personal view is that Toby's closest friend is Sam, not C.J., but that's just my opinion.) Thoughts? --Hnsampat (talk) 05:55, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

CJ is certainly Toby's oldest friend of the major characters (they knew each other prior to joining the campaign), whether or not she's his closest friend is moving into speculation (I'd argue yes, but that's just my opinon). I agree that Schiff was probably joking in the interview referenced, given the context; on the other hand, I have read in a couple of places that, although the two characters had not necessarily been intended as romantic interests for one another, Richard Schiff and Allison Janney often liked to bring layers of subtext into their characters' interactions that were not in the script. I'll try to dig up the original source. Shoemoney2night (talk) 10:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
This is certainly not the only article I've read where Richard Schiff discusses the Toby/C.J. thing and the adding of flirtation and their deep relationship. I've honestly never even heard of someone who's watched this show and didn't pick up on the Toby/C.J. thing, it's a pretty major aspect of both characters. They often shared things with each other that they didn't tell others (Hoynes, the thing with C.J.'s dad, Toby's brother killing himself), I mean, hell, Toby's final scene in the series was with C.J. and dealt with them rebuilding their close friendship. I mean, in my mind this is honestly like trying to cite moments where, say, Sam and Ainsley flirting... it's just, that's what a large part of their relationship was. They were each other's best friends, just like Josh and Sam were best friends or Jed and Leo were best friends. They were extremely close, there was a flirtatious dynamic. To not even discuss the depth of their friendship and their closeness when we *do* discuss it for Sam and Josh just seems silly to me.
I wish I could get my hands on more of the articles and interviews Schiff's done on the subject. He was light-hearted in nature when he said things because, sure, why wouldn't he be? But does that make it less valid? Either way, other parts of this article cite Richard Schiff as a source on things about Toby, so we could do that as well.
Either way, some of the stuff that's been reverted is stuff dealing with C.J. and Toby's falling out after Toby's leak and then not reuniting until Toby's last scene... and none of that stuff can be debated in any way, shape or form. It's what happened. I'm adding that back in. As for the other stuff, we can keep discussing it.--67.165.141.239 (talk) 09:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that Toby and C.J. were close, as indicated by all of the examples cited above. However, I'm not necessarily sure that C.J. was Toby's "closest" friend and that their relationship had any "flirting" aspect to it, which is what the article was saying before I removed that bit. If all of this is really, really obvious, then there should be no problem finding sources for it. (I'd say get sources from West Wing writers, since they are the ones who ultimately decide what the "truth" about the characters is.) I mean, there are abundant sources out there citing the flirtatious nature of Josh and Donna's relationship (and they've been available even since before Josh and Donna got together). Just remember that what can seem unbelievably obvious to you or me may not be so obvious to somebody else, which is why we need sources. Also, we need sources to make sure that we aren't passing off our own opinions as facts. --Hnsampat (talk) 16:33, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I absolutely agree with Hnsampat on the above points. There is no direct evidence that there are any romantic feelings between Toby and C.J., aside from the occasional remark that passes for Noel Coward-esque by-play between the two of them. (And even this was far stronger in the Sorkin years than in the succeeding seasons.) As well, C.J., the only female senior staffer for most of the show's history, engaged in more more flirtatious back-and-forth with her colleagues simply because they were colleagues. Had she had one of her tongue-in-cheek exchanges involving Toby--"You want to make out with me right now." "Well, when don't I?"--with a subordinate it would have been fairly out of character. Finally, Hnsampat is quite right in emphasizing two points. First, one's personal take on the show cannot be inserted within the article. Second, Schiff, perhaps ironically enough, is not necessarily the final arbiter of what Toby felt about anything. An actor playing Hamlet could, as did Laurence Olivier, decide to play the famous Gertrude scenes with a heavy air of repressed Oedipal desire; it does not, however, mean that that's what that production's "Hamlet"--the collaborative creation of directors, designers (did Schiff pick out Toby's neckties?), and most importantly, a writer(s)--actually wanted. In essence, Schiff's take on the character, while an informed and important one, is also limited, contingent, and prejudiced. As such, "evidence" gleaned from such interviews should more properly be placed in a separate section or flagged as the actor's opinion (though I realize this would complicate the article's in-universe style). Additionally, even were one to decide that C.J. was Toby's "closest friend"--and that is conjecture--one must also ask what it means to be "close" to Toby. Aside from one reference to his visiting his nieces and nephews for the holidays (presumably Hanukkah) and a game of pick-up ball with the president, Toby appears to not have had much of a social life outside the confines of the White House. Might all of this debate be about a character element that really tells us very little about the character? As well, one cannot make definitive comparisons--"oldest," "closest"--without having all the necessary history elements of the narrative universe. We know from his California recruiting drive that Toby and C.J. know one another by voice alone, are on a first-name basis, and are comfortable bantering with one another, but that does not necessarily make them "friends." Finally, C.J. is (apparently) Toby's longest-tenured acquaintance/friend among the later senior staffers... that we know of. Both he and Josh are very active in Democratic politics prior to Bartlet's primary run, for example, and certainly might have known one another, crossed paths, fought over the same woman, etc., but the show simply never tells us if A) they met in N.H. after Josh joined the campaign, B) they had a passing acquaintance, but Josh ran in more elevated Democratic strata than serial loser Toby, or C) something else more sordid/mundane. That many of us debate these matters speaks well of the show's enduring appeal and complex (if amorphous) set of intertwined histories. It's great that we want to make the WW universe as well-rounded and knowable as the one we wake up in every day. Yet such conjectural debates seem more appropriate for a fan site rather than the wikipedia project. --Patchyreynolds (talk) 15:42, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pregnancy

The article currently says that it's not clear whether Toby and Andi conceived by natural means or by in vitro fertilization but the show never even hints that in vitro was a possibility. Granted, they tried in vitro four years earlier, but that was before they divorced. It also seems unlikely that Toby would agree to in vitro considering his strong objections to raising the children out of wedlock. Obviously, we can't prove anything beyond a doubt but, given the absence of any mention of using in vitro to conceive the twins, I think the line should be removed.Nsfreeman (talk) 16:12, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree. Their previous attempts mean that viable embryos might well have remained after their divorce. Because we simply cannot know and her previous ardent support of IVF promotes the likelihood that Abdrea might have tried this on her own, the ultimate pregnancy should be considered as the result of two possible paths. Finally, multiple births are more common under IVF, and we have no evidence or mention of Andie and Toby having resumed a physical relationship. --Patchyreynolds (talk) 23:18, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I removed the reference simply because the show never directly raises the question of how the twins came to be conceived and so I feel there's no point in us raising the question here. --Hnsampat (talk) 23:40, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] City College sweatshirt

Located here, not sure how to cite this in the article. --Blue387 (talk) 02:22, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The episode itself is already cited. That should be sufficient, I think. --Hnsampat (talk) 02:25, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Shuttle Leak Background

This is a very well written article... kudos to the authors. One item of interest relates to the Military Shuttle leak storyline. Schiff himself is known to have hated the storyline, and most of us who followed the series would agree that for Ziegler to have been the source of the leak is far beyond the boundaries of the character. One interesting twist in the plot line that was mentioned in the latter part of the final series (but not developed significantly) was that Ziegler had leaked the story not to save the astronauts (which he himself had said would have been against the astronauts wishes... and that even his own brother, had he been on the station, would have insisted on the Military Shuttle not being revealed just to save three lives), but to reveal the US's program of 'weaponizing space' in direct contravention of several international treaties.

While I wouldn't necessarily say this is within character, it is far closer to Toby's character than the 'astronaut-saving' reasons mentioned above. Lastly, it is a technical weak point in the storyline that a space station emergency like this was employed at all. The space station has an 'escape pod' designed to deal with precisely this type of failure. This is clearly within the "poetic license" range, I guess, but for me was a weak point of a series that was very, very good for it's entire run. Posthocergopropterhoc (talk) 21:31, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Toby's relationship with President's daughter

At the start of the Santos campaign - Toby is seen with the President's daughter going out for a drink several times. It is discovered that Toby has been sending her Bartlett's old speeches for the benefit of her husband's Congressional election campaign. There is a hint of an affair. Later we discover that the President's daughter's husband's campaign is hurt by his affair with the family Nanny. When CJ confronts Liz Bartlett about it - she says "I knew - look - marriage is complicated" apparently referring to a fallout due to the prior affair with Toby. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.184.169.174 (talk) 03:11, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that theory is based on extremely flimsy evidence. Since when does having a drink with someone automatically mean having an affair? (I know, you said "hints" at an affair, but really, we can "hint" anything out of any action. Based on this logic here, we could "hint" that Toby has also had an affair with that random person we see in "In the Shadow of Two Gunmen, Part I" and Senator Rafferty, whom he has a drink with in the sixth season episode where he learns about his brother's death.) Also, marriage can be pretty complicated even when there are no extramarital affairs involved. It's much more likely, though, that Liz is referring to the fact that she knows her husband is having an affair and yet she's still with him because even though she hates him for having an affair, she loves him and wants to be with him or she's still staying for the sake of their children or whatever. Besides, none of this will ever get included in the article because it is pure original research. Thanks for your efforts, though! :) --Hnsampat (talk) 11:38, 31 May 2008 (UTC)