Talk:Tiruvalluvar

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[edit] Thiruvalluvar a "Pariah"??

That is the most non-sensical suggestion ever. Thiruvalluvar was a Brahmin and a Hindu philosopher. To suggest he was a pariah is near blasphemous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.39.64 (talk) 20:01, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thirukurral.

Thirukural is common to all religion, thats why it is called as Ulaga Pothu Marai. Thirukural is not talking about any religion, it just take about life style, displine, etc. Adding Tirukural into Hinduism is not appropriate. So removing this article from Religious Categories. Rajan 12:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1st century BCE or AD?

I think he was born in 1st century BCE and not AD. Isn't that the rational of Tamil Era calender being dated more than Chritian era? Thanks! Wiki San Roze ^talk 02:14, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article title

I would humbly suggest that the title of the article should be Thiruvalluvar, not Valluvar. I understand what is said about the honorific, but in this case I think the correct policy to look at is the one which says the common name of people should be used, and the common name in this case is Thiruvalluvar. In addition, "Valluvar" by itself is simply a caste name, like "Nayar" or "Vokkaligar" or "Parayar" (in fact, old sources say the Valluvar caste was related to the last named of these castes). This also I think is an argument in favor of using Thiruvalluvar as the article title. -- 80.123.15.187 21:30, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

If Valluvar also has other connotations, all we'd need is a disambig page. Simple as that. Sarvagnya 21:41, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Tiruvalluvar is much more commonly used than Valluvar. That being the case, I think the title should be Tiruvalluvar and have a redirect from Valluvar. Lotlil 23:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Dont move articles based on your POV and contrary to wiki policies. There are enough venerated souls like Srimad Anandateertha aka Srimad Madhvacharya, Ramanujacharya et al who go without the "Sri" on wikipedia. No reason Valluvar should be an exception. And in any case, the "ar" in Valluvar is a mark of respect. Sarvagnya 08:50, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you take some time to read up WP:NAME. And, while you are at it, also verify which name is more common. It really doesn't matter whether Tiru is honorific or abusive. Lotlil 13:52, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

He is commonly refered to as Thiruvalluvar and not Tiruvalluvar. This is the spelling used by Govt of Tamil Nadu. Thanks! ώЇЌĩ Ѕαи Яоzε ^†αLҝ 15:30, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Tiru and Thiru are just alternate spellings of each other, I have no preference of one over the other. You are welcome to make the change, if you like (and add a redirect to the other spelling). But, my point was that the name with the prefix is way more common than the one without it.Lotlil 15:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the opinion that Thiru used in the sense Sri may not be much of a case with Thiruvalluvar since he is refered to as Ayyan Thiruvalluvar when such honor needs to be shown. ώЇЌĩ Ѕαи Яоzε ^†αLҝ 17:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Are we going to change 'Srilanka' to 'lanka' since 'sri' is honorific? For the uninformed, Wikipedia uses commonly used name. More appropriate name would be Thiruvalluvar with redirects for 'Valluvar' & 'Tiruvalluvar'. Thanks Praveen 18:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

LOL. That was funny ! Lotlil 18:38, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Very funny. What? some kind of tamil humour? For the ignorant, SriLanka is a name where Sri is part of the name.. like Srinivasa or Srinath etc.,. The Thiru in Thiruvalluvar is NOT valluvar's name. It is a honorific which tamil nationalists have added to the name of a guy about whom they know nothing. Amazingly, not even his name. Sarvagnya 20:30, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Can't help your inability to pick up sarcasm.

The Thiru in Thiruvalluvar is NOT valluvar's name. How do you know that ? Were you present at his naamakaranam ? For all you know, even Valluvar may not have been his name. Whoever gave him that name probably gave it as Thiruvalluvar and he has been known by that name ever since. Anyway, all that is beyond the point, we need to use the more common name according to policy. Period. Too bad it hurts your pride. Lotlil 20:52, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Now.. do u want a citation that Thiru in V's name is an honorific? Is that what it is? And ya.. I know that you guys dont even know his name. I wrote that myself in my previous comment. And ya.. I know that according to your own legends he was an illegitimate child of some guy and a minor girl. No wonder we dont know his name. Sarvagnya 21:02, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

'Sri' in Srinivasa & Srinath is honorific. Go figure.

We don't know about any legends that Kannada regionalistic trolls propagate... But, we know which is illegitimate child of Sanskrit & Tamil.... BTW: Valluvar is not the 15th century 'omniscient' poet who stole kural's many concepts. Praveen 21:34, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

"Illegitimate child of Sanskrit and Tamil..." - and.. I saw some Tamil guy trolling somewhere that Tamil was virgin! LOL :D Sarvagnya 22:04, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

LOL. That was funny ! Gnanapiti 22:14, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Here is the explicit wikipedia rule for ignorant people. Praveen 21:56, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Gnanapiti..err.. Sarvagnya: Are you starting to see and hear things in your head ? I didn't ask for proof about Thiru being honorific. All I said was this statement of yours cannot be proven: The Thiru in Thiruvalluvar is NOT valluvar's name. If you don't understand the difference between what I said and what you are hearing in your head, ask here one more time and I will explain.Lotlil 22:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

All I said was this statement of yours cannot be proven: - I dont know what you're smoking.. but dont be so sure of yourself. Thanks. And btw.. you know what? For some reason, you(your trolling ie.,) reminds me a lot about wikiraja and aadal. Cant say which one more than the other. huh. Sarvagnya 22:58, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

You are clearly out of control. Why don't you ask for a check user, Sherlock ? Lotlil 23:20, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I just verified that Thiru is more appropriate (generates 75000 Google hits, as opposed to 58000 for Tiru). Let's wait till we can get the other party to honor the wiki policy and stop the revert war. We can then make the change just once. Lotlil 18:41, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree Thiruvalluavr is the better known name Taprobanus 20:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Thiruvalluavr is how most people (if not all) know him by. Watchdogb 22:23, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Lot of time and space has been wasted on "thiru" to be added or not. "Thiru" is is a word/prefix to person work.place etc.,Moolar who authored Manthiram [Thirumanthiram} is called Thirumoolar. Please What is in name? whatever the name the rose smells the same. Please spend your time and energy in studying the concepts and ideas.

Lotlil, dont feed the troll - Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 02:58, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I think there is much of personal vendata running in this discussion rather than for the purpose of wikipedia. ώЇЌĩ Ѕαи Яоzε ^†αLҝ 03:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] His religious affliation

Since there has been edit wars on his religious affliation, which no one can be very sure about, why dont we creat a seperate section on his religion and also another section on the legends on him -including the Vasuki story? This will help keep the speculation and legends out of the lead paragraph. Cheers ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε ^†αLҝ 09:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Not an edit war actually. User:Dravidianresearch (most probably same as 74.97.138.3) has been pushing his religious POV in articles related to Tamil culture, adding word "Jain" in every other sentence and removing any content that mentions non-Jain religions. For example, here he claimed that Arjuna was hero of a Jain epic, which was mutilated and presented as a Hindu epic by the Brahmin invaders. In another edit, he removed the sentence that mentioned Buddha. This is a clear case of a religious fanatic pushing his POV. If somebody wants to add such content to the articles, they need to come up with some reliable sources. Since, the user has not stopped after four warnings, s/he has been blocked temporarily.

The article already mentions: "Tiruvalluvar's faith is disputed. Many Hindus claim that he was a Hindu, while there are also accounts that he was a Jain. In any case, Tamils consider Tiruvalluvar to be a pragmatist and thought provoker and his work is often referred to as poyyamozhi பொய்யா மொழி (words of wisdom)." utcursch | talk 12:44, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel words?

I dont see why this article has been tagged {{weasel}}. I cant find any and if people do have concerns please raise them here than to leave others guessing. If there is no specific concern then why do we have to live with the tag? Cheers! ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε ^†αLҝ 09:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible original research statements

This entry is getting really into shape (thanks to all the editors), but I see (in my point of view) possible OR statements in the lead. However, the question of whether the author of Thirukkural (Valluvan) is named after his community or vice versa remains unanswered.

In any case, Tamils consider Thiruvalluvar to be a pragmatist and thought provoker and his work is often referred to as poyyamozhi பொய்யா மொழி (words of wisdom).

Do these need to stay or can it be removed? Cheers ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε ^†αLҝ 09:35, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

May be it is common knowledge among Tamils... you should take a vote. lol. Sarvagnya 03:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The word Shri

I am really interested to know more about the Sanskrit word Shri.

The polite word Thiru is used before a man's name when we speak or refer to him. According to Wikipedia, the Sanskrit word Padma Shri is an official title conferred on a person (male or female). I am unable to refer Caldwell, Robert 1875 (5) for clarification and the English dictionary (Collins) does not have this word Shri.

Wonder, what the Sanskrit word Shri means in English. Please do not take this as a rude question!! Thanks S.Ratnakumar 06:13, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Its roughly the equivalent of "Mister"... of course, with slightly different connotations at a philosophic level. Sarvagnya 06:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Can you provide with the exact wordings on howShri became Thiru please? Because it doesn't add up much on to two unrelated sounding words and one coming from the other. Cheers ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε ^†αLҝ 07:01, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

In linguistics, the concept is called "Tatbhava"(borrowing Sanskrit words with modifications to suit the language's(Tamil in this case) linguistic make up, as opposed to "Tatsama"(which is to borrow words from Skt., as is). Its safe to say that almost every Indian language's vocabulary consists of a significant percentage of Tatsamas and tatbhavas apart from indigenous/native words. May be news to Tamils, but in other parts of the world it passes for 'common knowledge'. Feel free to dig. Sarvagnya 07:24, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

It is common knowledge among Tamils that we do have words borrowed from Sanskrit, not just in everyday usage but also in some older Tamil literary works, given the centuries of influence of Sanskrit on all Indian languages. But the question I raised was onto how Thiru came FROM Sanskrit Shri, which sound extremely different to each other. ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε ^†αLҝ 07:35, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Caldwell doesnt give the exact derivation but is categorical about his assertion. He also compares tiru to siri(another corruption of shri) and suggests that tiru is the older of the two. Infact, he says Tamil was the first of the Dravidian languages to be Sanskritised. And of course, all this is common knowledge among tamils. right? Where were you my friend, when a certain Praveen Pillay and Aadal trolled for over a month when I tried to add a line or two in Tamil language about Tamil's indebtedness to Sanskrit? Sarvagnya 08:00, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

If Tiru is older then how come you say it is from Siri? Having loan words doesn't make a language indebted, especially because for all the Sanskrit derived words there is already a Tamil word and something for your notebook: Just because English borrows words from Indian languages including Tamil, doesn't make English indebted to Indian languages on the whole. Coming back to the point of Thiru, I see that your reference states that Tiru is older than Siri and hence I see no point in you using the word from there and reverting the word equivalent. Cheers ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε ^†αLҝ 08:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello. I(Caldwell) didnt say Tiru came from Siri. Both Tiru and Siri are corruptions of Sanskrit Shri... further, Caldwell is of the opinion that Tiru is an earlier corruption of Shri as compared to Siri. And oh btw, Tamil didnt just borrow words from Skt., it borrowed a lot more. Tamil literature owes a great deal to Sanskrit literature. Dig through the "Tamil language" talk page archives for more. Thanks. Sarvagnya 09:58, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

So Tiru was derived from Shri? Can you please explain how by quoting the exact sentences from Caldwell? ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε ^†αLҝ 13:16, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Sarvagnya, can you quote Caldwell verbatim here? -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 08:12, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Sure. Give me some time. I've never fought shy of adding quotes to my refs. If you would only do me a favour and add(or get a certain Venu62 to add) inline refs and pertinent quotes to practically scores of unsourced/OR articles(with tall/dubious claims) he's written. On all these articles, a {{OR}} tag has been circumvented by dumping the customary KANS (1965) into the ==Refs== section. Sarvagnya 08:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Take your time. You're welcome to mention some of those "tall claims" directly to him or to me so that we can fix them. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 08:59, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

In the meantime, will it be ok if we:

a) Change the sentence

The name Thiruvalluvar (ThiruValluvar) consists of Thiru (from Sanskrit:Shri)^[1] to

The name Thiruvalluvar (ThiruValluvar) consists of Thiru (a polite word equivallent to "Mister"); and

b) Create a (sub) title The etymolology of the word Thiru.

Please note: While the LIFCO Tamil-Tamil-English dictionary carries about ten meanings for the word Thiru, according to V.R. Nedunchezhiyan there are about nineteen meanings. Regards S.Ratnakumar 00:11, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Please see page 2 of Thiru .-Bharatveer 08:08, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The usefulness of Sanskrit

Thirukkural has 9310 (7 X 1330) cirs (a single Tamil word or a combination of more than one word) out of which about 99.4% are pure Tamil words (a critical reading of the Kural will reveal this) . About (at the most 0.6%) 50 words may have Sanskrit influence. Therefore the usefulness of Sanskrit in the creation of Thirukkural is nil (at the best minimal). One does not need the knowledge of Sanskrit to appreciate (or understand) the Kurals (couplets).

It is inevitable that Tamils who practice Hinduism and perhaps, Saivaism may benifit from knowing Sanskrit. Needless to say, this category of Tamils will feel happy that they know (or understand) Sanskrit. Some may even feel indebted toSanskrit.

But, it will be unfair to hypothesize that Tamils (of all walks of life) are indebted to Sanskrit. Worse still will be, to expect all the Tamils to become indebted to it. This may surprise (if not intrigue) the Tamils who do not practice or have the exposure to Hinduism.

However, Tamil and Sanskrit are two different and respectable entities in their own right. The interation of the two might have happened through Hinduism. Regards S.Ratnakumar 04:07, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Tamil word Thiru from the Sanskrit word Shri

Thiru is a Tamil word which (according to LIFCO Tamil-Tamil-English dictionary) has more than eight meanings. In order to justify one's point of view (or opinion) that Thiru originated from the Sanskrit Shiri it vital to cite a source for verification. The cited source (Caldwell) does not conclusively state that Thiru is originated from Shri.

The point of view that Thiru was originated from Shri introduces an argument that whether Tamils had a polite word (similar to Mr) before Sanskrit was popularized amongst them.

Therefore, either remove the sentence from the Sanskrit Shri or repharase it as claimed to be originated from Sanskrit Shri. until the claim becomes verifiable.

Regards. S.Ratnakumar 01:17, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

On the lighter note usage of Shri and Thiru seem to be pretty different, where Shri can be used more than once together as Shri Shri but its not case with Thiru which when used together as Thiru Thiru makes funny sense. :) ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε ^†αLҝ 09:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Just wondering why do we need to mention the etymology of the word "Thiru"? Just mention the meaning (something like "Thiru, a Tamil honorific"). If it is an important word that deserves an encyclopedic article (like Sri), the etymology can go there. utcursch | talk 09:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Just realized, there is already an article on Thiru -- the etymology debate can continue there. I am removing it from this article. utcursch | talk 09:29, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Cheers! I would have thought so, but didnt want to feed the trolls to another debate. ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε ^†αLҝ 10:00, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Dravidian civilizations

Wiki Raja 09:19, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:20, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Uncited, Malicious Dravidian Aryan Commentary Deleted

I deleted the Uncited and Malicious content that was in the Traditional Accounts of Thiruvalluvar.

It mentioned totally unverified ideas of Dravidian caste equality, of an Aryan invasion (which is under MAJOR dispute - more and more as time goes by) and Dravidian 'purity' of Thiruvalluvar and much more.

Not only was all of this totally uncited, it is malicious in making racial distinctions.

AND, it has logical arguments against it!

Firstly, the most pernicious instance of the caste system in Tamil society was in Northern and Eastern Sri Lanka where there were nearly 0 Brahmins. Secondly, whether or not the Aryan Invasion theory is true (with more and more evidence suggesting it was just reciprocal acculturation and NOT a biological invasion or even migration), fact remains that numerous Brahmins (Gurukals) were in Tamil Nadu during ancient Sangam times. Not only does Sangam literature mention them with past tense, many Brahmins were indeed Sangam poets as well.

The propoganda in this must be removed if Wiki has any reputation.

Thanks for writing this garbage, E.V. Ramaswami Naicker. :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.224.100 (talk) 11:44, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Who can prove Aryan Brahmin destruction of a harmonious casteless Dravidian society - especially when the racial distinction of Aryan and Dravidian is being biologically disproven over and over again...? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.224.100 (talk) 12:11, 18 March 2008 (UTC)